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Blue The Nation | April 24, 2014

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Five Reasons to Be a Feminist Man

Five Reasons to Be a Feminist Man
Jonathan Nathan

UPDATE: Check out some of the rabid responses from the Internet Misogyny Brigade HERE, HERE, and HERE. And HERE! And even HERE!

UPDATE II, UPDATING HARDER: Beth Wiesendanger came up with Five Reasons to Date a Feminist Woman. Other than, you know, the obvious one.

One of the strangest misconceptions about the feminist movement is the notion that every feminist is a woman. Even in the darkest days of race relations in the United States, no one was under the impression that the entire abolitionist movement was black, or that the entire civil rights movement was black. In fact, segregationists–and pro-slavery advocates before them–were famously very well aware of “carpetbaggers” and “outside agitators.” But feminism has been successfully recast by its opponents as the sole province of angry, man-hating lesbians that want to murder babies and cut everybody’s dick off. Which is weird, because my mom is a feminist, and not only did she have sex with a man at least four times–on account of she had four children, none of whom she murdered–but she did not, at any point, try to cut off my dick, or anyone else’s dick.

Let me make this clear: I’m a dude. I say “bro” a lot, only about 60% ironically. I have broad shoulders and a beard. I go to a lot of sports games. I drink crappy beer and crappier liquor, and I have zero interest in wine. I eat red meat way more frequently than is healthy. I think shooting guns can be fun. I probably have some allergies that I just ignore because I don’t notice them. I don’t wash a single dish until I am completely out of usable clean dishes. I love playing pool, I love playing cards, I love playing dice. I’m a dude. Almost cartoonishly so at times.

So when I say I’m a feminist, nobody is allowed to write me off with a “Pfff, just some skinny hipster douche, he probably reads books and stuff.” Nor can you write me off as gay, which is another assumption dudes make about feminist men, because I’m not. And you can’t say I’m whipped, because I’m single. And you can’t say I’ve been “pussified” or whatever that one is, because see above. Hell, I carry a Leatherman around with me in case there’s a sudden instance of something requiring pliers or a knife. I’m a guy, I’m a feminist, and I think more guys should be feminists. I’m going to give you five reasons why, and none of them will be “Because chicks are totally into it bro” or “Because think about your mom, dude.” You shouldn’t be a feminist because you want to protect your womenfolk, or because you think it’ll get you laid. You should be a feminist because you should fucking be a feminist. So here are the five reasons why, helpfully illustrated with Feminist Ryan Gosling images. (Buy the Feminist Ryan Gosling book, it’s awesome!)

1) There is absolutely no moral argument against feminism. Not one.

This is, of course, the most important one. Feminism is the simple belief that folks should have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else, free of fabricated and unnecessary barriers, without constantly fearing for their safety, regardless of gender. If you have an argument that runs counter to that, then fuck you. You’re a bad person. If you do not have an argument that runs counter to that, then congratulations. You already agree with feminists on the most fundamental tenet of the ideology. Now just get your behavior in line with that belief and we’ll all be fine.

2) The more feminist men there are, the fewer women will get raped. Seriously.

I’ll explain. The common cultural depiction of a rapist is some creepy dude with a thin moustache in like an overcoat or a hoodie who follows a woman home and grabs her and has his way with her in the bushes. He may or may not have a windowless van, depending on which Law & Order: SVU episode most informs your idea of rape. But that’s not really an accurate notion. The majority of rapes are committed by men who are known to the victim. Acquaintances, co-workers, even family members or friends. If you’ve ever wondered why some women are a little guarded before they form a friendship with you, that’s a big part of the answer. That, and the fact that they know you most likely just want to have sex with them.

This is the reason that more feminist men equals fewer women getting raped. Quite a few of those rapists who were acquainted with their victims didn’t even realize they were committing the crime. Did you know that if a woman is significantly more intoxicated than you are, and you have sex with her, there’s a very good chance you’ve just become a rapist? If you’re like the majority of men in this country (any country, really), you didn’t. Did you know that if a woman says no the first time and then says yes later after you apply some form of pressure, you’ve just become a rapist? Again, chances are good that you didn’t.

One of feminism’s most important aims is to educate men and women on what actually constitutes rape, sexual assault, etc. A feminist man–a real one, who actually understands feminism–is extremely less likely to rape his acquaintances, because most people don’t actually want to rape anybody. But if you don’t know what rape is–and it’s very easy to not know what rape is in our culture–it’s pretty hard to not do it.

A feminist man won’t think that because a woman’s skirt is short, she’s totally down to have sex with any and every man in a two-mile radius. A feminist man won’t think that just because he bought a lady some drinks, that means he gets to have sex with her. A feminist man will never answer that OKCupid question, “Do you feel there are any circumstances in which a person is obligated to have sex with you?” with anything but “No.” A feminist man will not try to score with the way-too-drunk chick at a party, and will instead make sure she gets home safely–not because he’s trying to be a “good man” who will later use that as a weapon to get her to have sex with him “willingly,” but because he knows what rape is, and because he wants to be a decent human being. In short, a feminist man will probably not rape anybody.

3) When women are in charge of stuff, they do a really good job.

There are now more women in Congress than there have ever been before. 20% of the Senate is comprised of women. And by all accounts, their presence, particularly in positions of committee leadership, has been a very good thing. They’ve been able to reach out to one another across partisan divides, as well as subtler ideological boundaries, such as the ones separating Blue Dog Democrats from more left-leaning ones. A great deal of whatever progress has been made in the face of an obstructionist Republican caucus has been accomplished because of the efforts of women. For other examples of the efficacy of women in positions of power, look to the business world, where women in leadership roles are consistently praised. Although it’s much harder for a woman to reach such heights, if she does so, she almost always gets glowing reviews.

UPDATE: I’ve caught a lot of flack for skimping on this section. You want to know more of my thoughts on women in leadership positions? Here you go, a salute to our awesome women Senators.

4) When abortion is restricted, people die.

Remember the woman who died during childbirth in Ireland because she wasn’t allowed to get an abortion? That’s not uncommon in situations where abortions are outlawed or restricted. Childbirth can, unfortunately, be a life-threatening thing. And even if it’s not, there are other dangers posed by outlawing or restricting abortion. The most important one is this: Some people are going to get abortions whether they’re legal or not. If they’re illegal, they will get abortions from unsafe, under-the-table, fly-by-night operations. And sure, that can happen even under Roe v. Wade, but when abortion is conducted under the auspices of the law, a bad abortion provider can be punished. That’s why there are so few of them out there. If abortion is outlawed, there will be no recourse. Women will die because a bunch of stupid old white men decided that they shouldn’t have control over their own bodies.

5) Oppression doesn’t end until the oppressor stops oppressing.

I know, I know, this is a tough one to hear. You don’t feel like an oppressor. Of course you don’t. If you did, you’d stop doing the things that oppress people! That’s how oppression usually functions in the real world. There are very few people out there who sit around twirling moustaches thinking of ways to be evil and hurt someone. Nobody feels like an oppressor. I don’t feel like an oppressor. But I almost certainly am, because of something I do which has implications I don’t fully grasp.

But when you tell a random woman on the street that she looks beautiful today, or that she should smile; when you try to pick up on a girl at the bar without even bothering to try getting to know her first; when you tweet out that what happened in Steubenville was bad but that girl shouldn’t have gotten so drunk; when you talk about women as if they were sexual objects; when you complain about being “friendzoned”; when you do these and a thousand other little things, you oppress women. You contribute to a culture of oppression, a culture of rape and sexual violence, a culture of objectification, a culture of male dominance and superiority.

It’s a culture in which women can still lose their jobs because they get pregnant. It’s a culture protected by a military disturbingly rife with sexual predators and rapists. It’s a culture in which women still don’t make as much money as men do for the same work. It’s a culture that tells women they shouldn’t “try to have it all” (which means having a family and a career and a social life) while telling men they should be ambitious and go out there and take what they want. It’s ultimately a culture that’s as painful and frustrating for men as it is for women. And it’s not a culture you should want to help perpetuate.

Gentlemen, you’re already soldiers in the War on Women. It’s time to switch sides.

  • Lalita O’Patel

    Thank you for writing such a powerful piece… I’ve shared this with the hopes it makes a much needed difference.

    • JonathanNathan

      Thanks! I’m glad both of you liked it! If you haven’t yet, I hope you’ll Like our Facebook page so you can get updates every time we post!

  • Vivek

    I’ve been a feminist man for over 20 years!
    And do my best to evolve every day.
    Thank you for this excellent explanation.
    I’ve shared it as well (that’s my sister below!!) and believe that people will be positively affected by it.

    Peace

    • JonathanNathan

      Thanks, I’m glad both of you liked it! If you haven’t yet, I hope you’ll Like our Facebook page so you can get updated every time we post!

      • Will Geddes

        “There are now more women in Congress than there have ever been before. 20% of the Senate is comprised of women.”

        that’s probably not something you should brag about, since Congress and Senate are both completely ineffectual right now, and couldn’t get a bill passed if it made the cure for cancer free for everyone.

        • JonathanNathan

          And I’m sure that’s entirely the fault of the women in Congress, rather than the men in charge who are obstructing everything.

          • Will Geddes

            i’m not sure where in my original comment you believe I suggested that women were to blame. i simply said that senate and congress are not good examples of positive female influence. feminists like to read what they want to read.

            do you have any research or statistics to back up the claim that only the men in charge are obstructing the democratic process?

            for the record, Michele Bachmann is a woman, and a member of congress, and she is a horrible representative for women and for society as a whole.

          • JonathanNathan

            “i’m not sure where in my original comment you believe I suggested that women were to blame. i simply said that senate and congress are not good examples of positive female influence.”–OK, your homework assignment for today is to read what you just wrote there until you can figure out how much sense it doesn’t make.

            “do you have any research or statistics to back up the claim that only the men in charge are obstructing the democratic process?”–According to my calculations, the leaders of the Republican caucuses are named John and Mitch. Those are conspicuously male names.

          • Will Geddes

            1) are you an idiot? you claimed that i blamed women in congress for congress being a complete failure. i didn’t. i simply said, if you want to make women look like they “get things done” then don’t use the US government as an example, because NOBODY gets things done.

            2) i didn’t ask you who leads the caucuses, i asked you for concrete evidence that women in congress and senate are more effective than men. which you won’t find, because they are equally ineffective.

          • JonathanNathan

            1) Parse your words however you want. We both know what you meant.

            2) Actually, you asked me for evidence backing up the claim that it’s men who are obstructing the process. The evidence is that the people obstructing the process are John Boehner and Mitch McConnell.

          • John

            this guy just hates men he’s blinded by his hate for his own kind so don’t try and tell him other wise or else you hate women

            BTW WIll solid statement about that crazy women Bachmenn glad she’s not running again

          • JonathanNathan

            Provide one reason to believe I hate men.

          • DMANDICINO

            Oh how funny. If a man is supportive of women he’s a traitor to the male species. If everything is all equal and cool out there why is there anything to be a traitor to?

          • dashed

            1) Translation: I refuse to admit I was wrong, so my straw man still stands.

          • DMANDICINO

            You might want to reflect on the name Wendy Davis for awhile. Women are not for the most part acting like Republican men. The ones who do are like blacks who cozied up to the master on the plantation. They want the perks of making males happy.

          • Derisann

            “OK, your homework assignment for today is to read what you just wrote
            there until you can figure out how much sense it doesn’t make.”

            Are all feminist men so patronising? Enjoy your “holier than thou” state of mind, when it comes to me thanks but no, thanks.

          • Alex Reynard

            Nancy Pelosi.

          • JonathanNathan

            Not in charge of a majority caucus, and not in charge of a Republican caucus. Rather, she’s in charge of a caucus which has, on more than one occasion, bailed out John Boehner’s Republican leadership in a crisis. Try again.

          • Alex Reynard

            Oh that’s convenient. “More women in congress than ever, yet congress is doing an absolutely terrible job? Women aren’t to blame at all! Only the evil men!!”

          • JonathanNathan

            I would say the performance of the leaders of the Republican caucuses is anything but convenient.

        • Marli King

          And that is probably because ONLY 20% of the Congress is women. When the ratio hits 50% and it is still dysfunctional, then you can start trying to put it on women.

        • DMANDICINO

          Are you actually bashing someone for being proud of the progress women have made? You might want to address your opinion to the Republican party.

  • Joel Conley

    Good article. You should do a follow-up that explains how men benefit from feminism, e.g. tearing down the culturally-ingrained concepts of how men are expected to be and how women are expected to be. At the same time as we encourage a wife & mother to have a fulfilling career, if the husband/father wants to be the stay-at-home parent to raise his kids, he should be able to do so without feeling like less of a man. But it’s also about accepting the man working and the woman taking care of the kids because the point is for everyone to feel like they have a choice without feeling like they are not living up to certain expectations that were placed on them for absolutely no rational reason.

    • dashed

      “You should do a follow-up that explains how men benefit from feminism,”

      They only benefit from the fringe benefits. Feminism does jack shit to stop gender problems that effect men but not women.

      • thefriendzoner

        //Feminism does jack shit to stop gender problems that effect men but not women.//

        Men do benefit from feminism, seeing as gender equality is the ACTUAL goal.

        • dashed

          Ok tell me what has feminism done to address an inequality men face but not women (draft, longer prison sentences, lack of male domestic violence shelters etc).

          • Maia

            Places like Sweden, which is a notoriously egalitarian country, have done quite a lot. Men and women have equal amounts of paid maternity/paternity leave, to allow men to stay at home raise their children if they choose to do so, without any stigma. They also require toy catalogues to ignore gender roles when advertising, to alleviate the stigma that young boys might feel when choosing to play with typically “feminine” toys, such as stoves or hair and makeup stuff. This allows young men to grow up in an environment that makes them feel comfortable with their unique interests, instead of having to deal with a society that calls men who like to cook or do hair “gay” or “pussies” or other hurtful slurs. These are just some examples, among many others, that have resulted because of feminism, and have helped men out. I’m also rather curious as to how you linked feminism with drafts. I also think it’s important to note that the fastest growing prison demographic are hispanic women. So times are in fact, changing. Lack of domestic male violence shelters are something that many feminists believe should be instituted, along with many other things, that are inhibited by MRA’s who feel that gender roles aren’t hurtful. We have a long way to go until we achieve full equality, and if you want to see places that are getting there much faster than we are, look at Scandinavia.

          • dashed

            “Places like Sweden, which is a notoriously egalitarian country”

            It’s notoriously feminist, maybe not egalitarian.

            ” I’m also rather curious as to how you linked feminism with drafts.”

            It’s an inequality that I’ve never seen them fight that’s all.

            “I also think it’s important to note that the fastest growing prison demographic are hispanic women.”

            Source?

          • dashed

            Forgot to mention that if the rest of it is true, then that’s a good example, so thanks for that. Haven’t seen a lot of MRA’s who are pro gender roles though.

          • francescapiante

            sorry, just ignorant, what is MRA?

          • Devin

            All of the things you listed are downsides men experience from the patriarchy.
            The reason why the draft is only for men is because whoever made up that policy though that women couldn’t fight and.or sexual assault against women would be “bound to happen”.

            Longer prison sentences against men are probably due to the fact that woman are perceived as more innocent, men being the opposite, which leads guilty women to go off free and men having harsher prison sentences.

            Lack of male domestic violence centers are because woman are perceived as weak and in need of protecting, whereas mean are supposed to be strong and manly and able to handle anything.

            If feminism reached its goal in gender equality (for all genders) and the abolition of deep set gender roles, these problems would be AT LEAST greatly diminished, if not non-existent.

          • francescapiante

            Wow, I remember learning a about an actual neighbor of mine, who was beating the spouse, and it was the wife beating the husband, it sounded almost unreal, because I only expected the opposite to take place. I have volunteered for two different battered women shelter, and I am run across these situation again, and it is a real scourge that we have no shelters for men in these situations.

        • NWOslave

          Of course the flaw to gender equality is men and women aren’t biologically equal, mentally, physically or emotionally. Any law, such as the laughable sexual harassment laws, are designed to punish men while women face no such punishment.

          For instance. Ten random men say to ten random women, “You look hot.” One of those women might feel slighted and say she was sexually harassed. The following day the same thing happens but the woman who felt harassed yesterday doesn’t feel harassed today, but a woman who didn’t feel harassed yesterday does feel harassed today.

          Or, Ryan Gosling says “You look hot” to ten different women and they’re all flattered, but Joe the plumber does the same and those same ten women all feel harassed. And the flip side is, no man will ever complain of sexual harassment by any woman who says “He’s hot.” Which makes a woman’s sexual harassment complaint a man’s compliment.

          So a gender neutral law of verbal sexual harassment is a law where anything a man says to a woman might result in his punishment depending upon her feelings at any moment in time. Yet a woman can say anything to a man and he will never feel sexually harassed. And this is because men and women aren’t biologically emotionally equal. The great fraud of gender equality.

          • Joel Conley

            Male privilege much?

          • DMANDICINO

            Sweet Manspalin! But a total load of BS. Sexualharassment laws exist because feminists fought for them because women couldn’t work without being subjected to constant unwelcome advances especially from their bosses who had the power to fire them. Now just because males have been taught that it is unmanly to refuse sex doesn’t make it abnormal to not jump anything that looks at you. The phrase “he’s thinking with his dick” exists for a reason. Maybe if I could time warp you to an alternate world where you are working in a diner as a waitrer, your wife drank like a fiend and finally abandoned you and your 10 kids. You depend on this job to feed them. Your boss is a 70 year old woman and she makes advances on you including touching you. pinning you in corners, suggesting that you might not be getting a raise unless you “put out” and if you go you won’t get much of a reference. When you complain people laugh at you and tell you to get a sense of humor. She’s just joking with you. So everyday you have to fight her off. In this world women have the power and she networks with other business people and they protect each other by making it difficult for you to get another job. The kids are hungry, the rent is due, you have no savings. That is how women lived before the 2nd wave. You need to get out of the way or ditch the male privilege and actually help. Until then its not your place to tell women anything.

            It seems in your mind sexual harassment means someone really hot is interested in you so why not just act like a man and go for it but in reality its probably someone who totally turns you off.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Of course the flaw to gender equality is men and women aren’t biologically equal, mentally, physically or emotionally.”–Of course, all the scientific literature on the matter says you’re wrong, but don’t let that get in your way.

            “One of those women might feel slighted and say she was sexually harassed.”–She doesn’t feel “slighted.” She feels AFRAID.

        • Alex Reynard

          Gender equality is the actual goal. And feminists think they can reach this goal by only ever focusing on the problems of women. Hm. Seems like bad strategy.

          • DMANDICINO

            It seems to have worked pretty well. In a not so distant time I would be the property of my father and then my husband. I wouldnt be able to own property and my children would also be the property of my husband. I wouldn’t vote, I wouldn’t go to college and sometimes not high school cause it was a waste of tiime to educate women. My chances of dying in childbirth were enormous. I couldnt control how many children I would have. All these things and many others were addressed by the first wave of feminism. Men fought to keep them 2nd class citizens. So prior to the 2nd wave if a woman got married she was made to stop working unless she was a domestic worker or garment worker, lower class women could work in lower class jobs for less money. Women could not get a tubal ligation without the consent of the husband until 1976. Women were the first to be fired because men need jobs to support families. When responding to domestic disputes police often considered it a family matter and did nothing. Comments like “She must have asked for it.” were common. Of course women were routinely paid less for the same work if they could get the same work because most jobs considered to be “male jobs” weren’t open to women. If my memory serves me there was one woman in the Senate for a long time. Women faced prejudice when trying to become Doctors or Lawyers or most professions. Women were sent off to college to find a husband. These and many other issues were addressed by the 2nd wave. Males derided and resisted these changes and with the advent of conservatism they created a backlash during which many of the progress was erased or even worsened. It took women almost 100 years to secure the vote. Had they not focused on the problems of women then tell me who would have? And the 3rd wave has arrived and men are even more angry and resistant to giving up their male privilege. Women have worked in every movement to free people from slavery and oppression but when we try to free ourselves where are you? I don’t see you giving up your privilege So if women choose to work for their own freedom its none of your business. .

          • Alex Reynard

            >So if women choose to work for their own freedom its none of your business.

            It becomes my business when women like you rewrite history to make yourselves the only victims, and in doing so justify actions whereby you are ‘taking back’ what was denied by ‘your oppressors’.

            But imagine this scenario: Two prisoners are in a cell. The jailer takes away the female prisoner’s food. She assumes that, because the jailer and the other prisoner are both male, they are in cahoots. So she feels justified in taking the male prisoner’s food for herself. She hasn’t noticed that the male prisoner is not in any way benefiting from being the same gender as the jailer, and in fact the jailer has taken away all his clothes. So when the female does what she believes is justified, the reality is not equality, but further injustice.

            In the case of history, I don’t deny any of the examples you gave of female oppression. But you selectively leave out the fact that, since women were not at work, the men HAD to be. This was a period of the most horrifying treatment of workers this country has ever seen, All Of Them Men. All of them working themselves to death to feed themselves and their wives and children.

            This was not a society where men oppressed women. It was a society where THE RICH oppressed THE POOR. And before you say that all the rich people were men, do you think their wives weren’t well-off too?

            So I have no problem with feminists correcting genuine oppression. Women should be able to vote, to have body autonomy, to work in any job which they are capable of performing. But at this point in time, American women have never been better off. Yet there are plenty of gender-based injustices men have yet to overcome; and most of them aren’t even allowed to be acknowledged. Like the fact that part of my genitals was carved off when I was born for No Defensible Reason, and everyone tells me it’s no big deal. Like the fact that men are far more often the victims of violence, homicide, suicide, workplace deaths, prison rape and homelessness.

            So I am perfectly happy letting you address issues which are important to you. But allow me the same thing. And if your movement tries to stop me from achieving my goals by claiming they don’t matter or don’t even exist, then don’t be surprised when people like me push back.

          • dumbledoraexplorer

            When you want to fight for racial equality, you start by helping the minorities who are slaves, have no voting rights, less opportunities etc. until they are equal with the first class citizens. When you want gender equality, you start by lifting up the gender that has historically been treated as second class. Women were the gender that couldn’t vote, or be politicians, or own their own property, and faced countless other injustices. Naturally you fight for equality by helping the disadvantaged reach the same level as the advantaged.

          • Alex Reynard

            A huge problem that men’s rights activism faces is the perception you just described; that women’s oppression in the past is In Any Way comparable to the black civil rights struggle. It isn’t. Women have never been _uniquely_ historically oppressed. The explanation is simple: any society that forces rigid gender roles onto one gender will force them onto the other too.

            All the examples you gave are perfectly true. But what’s *also* true is that most men also didn’t have the right to vote, and for nearly as long. Poverty kept most people from having a voice in their country, not just gender or race.

            But also, women weren’t allowed to vote because that right was later associated with the duty of conscription. Women have never been forced to fight and die whenever the state felt like getting in a war.

            This is an extremely common pattern in gender opression: If one gender is denied a right the other has, they are also very likely not forced into an accompanying responsibility. Like how women weren’t ‘allowed’ to work for many decades. While women were stuck at home, overprotected like delicate ornaments, men were financially responsible for them. So men had to go out and work to feed themselves, their wives and their kids. And if you’ll remember, about a century ago American busineses were treating their lowly workers with horrifying cruelty. How many women were accidentally crushed by machinery in factories? How many women died of yellow fever on the Panama canal?

            Also, a thought experiment: I want you to take a moment and imagine the worst oppression that blacks were subjected to during America’s history. Slavery, lynchings, firehoses, all of it. Has *any* of that ever systematically happened to women in this country? I hear people say as if it’s a simple fact that women have it worse than men. I wonder if they’d say the same about white women and black men.

            So this is why I oppose feminism. It will lead you halfway down the path of understanding, and then fiercely insist that you must stop right here and go no further. It does some good, indisputably, but it also wants to keep all the victimhood pie for itself. There are innumerable ways that gender roles hurt men, which the public is simply not aware of because either it’s too taboo to speak of, or we just don’t really care. We still seem to think that a woman hitting a man is comedy and a woman raping a man is impossible. Neither side has it “worse”, and focusing on that inevitably leads to ignoring the other side’s pain. This country’s history (along with many others) is NOT a story of men benefiting from the oppression of women. It has always been a story of the poor of both genders being oppressed by the rich and powerful.

          • dumbledoraexplorer

            A few key points:

            1. I’m not an American, so I don’t judge feminism based purely on the experience of American women. 2. I don’t think oppression is a competition. I don’t feel the need to argue over who had it worst. Most feminists don’t. Ironically in trying to suggest that men have suffered just as much from gender inequality as women have, you are drawing the false equivalency that you accused me of drawing. You might find that if you listened to feminists you would find that many of them are just as concerned with the way gender roles restrict men as you are. 3. To say that you are a feminist means only that you believe women are equal with men. Nothing else. It does not require you to believe that individual men have not been oppressed throughout history because of their race, sexuality, religion, socio-economic background or other characteristic. Once again, oppression is not a competition. 4. When people say that women have had it worse than men, they don’t mean ALL women have had it worse than ALL men. They mean “all things being equal”, women have had it worse than men. So, throughout history a rich woman had less power and freedom than a rich man. A poor woman had less power and freedom than a poor man. And so forth. 5. I’m sure the women of Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Sudan, Congo and many other nations will be delighted to hear from your educated mouth that they have never been “uniquely historically oppressed”. I’m sure that will comfort them as they face systematic rape, genital mutilation, premature marriage and the total lack of political rights. 6. Please google “women in the industrial revolution”, you may be surprised to find that women and children also worked in the same horrible conditions as men…the difference being that were paid even less. 7. Finally, as an Australian woman in a 21st century I feel that in 99% of my life I am treated as completely equal to the men in my society. I do not feel personally oppressed. I am grateful that I am an equal citizen. I appreciate the generations of feminist men and women who came before me and fought sometimes with their lives for the freedom that I have now. I will not let an ignorant reactionary dickhead like yourself tell me that I have nothing to be grateful for because women were never lynched therefore what was all the fuss about.

          • Alex Reynard

            >I don’t think oppression is a competition. I don’t feel the need to argue over who had it worst.

            This is a direct quote from you: “When you want gender equality, you start by lifting up the gender that has historically been treated as second class. Women were the gender that couldn’t vote, or be politicians, or own their own property, and faced countless other injustices.” So don’t tell me one thing and then the opposite.

            >Most feminists don’t.

            The huge majority of feminists I’ve ever seen believe completely in the idea that women were historically worse off than men and still are.

            >Ironically in trying to suggest that men have suffered just as much from gender inequality as women have, you are drawing the false equivalency that you accused me of drawing.

            No, I’m not. You compared women’s oppression to slavery, I explained why that comparison is offensively invalid, and then explained why male and female gender oppression is not only comparable but interlocking.

            >You might find that if you listened to feminists you would find that many of them are just as concerned with the way gender roles restrict men as you are.

            I have talked to many feminists. Many of them are offended by the very idea of men’s rights, and a majority of them clearly care more about women’s issues than men’s. This is also definitely reflected in the political actions of feminism: I’m still not seeing any men’s domestic violence shelters popping up, for instance.

            >To say that you are a feminist means only that you believe women are equal with men. Nothing else.

            That’s not true, otherwise there would be no need to call it ‘FEMinism’. You could just call it egalitarianism. By necessity, feminism must be defined as believing that women are oppressed and that action needs to be taken. It also doesn’t necessarily depend on belief in Patriarchy, but that’s certainly a core idea.

            >It does not require you to believe that individual men have not been oppressed throughout history

            Patriarchy Theory does. Or at least to believe “Patriarchy hurts men too”.

            >When people say that women have had it worse than men, they don’t mean ALL women have had it worse than ALL men. They mean “all things being equal”, women have had it worse than men.

            I’m perfectly aware of that, and I’m still disagreeing with the idea.

            >I’m sure the women of Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Sudan, Congo and many other nations will be delighted to hear from your educated mouth that they have never been “uniquely historically oppressed”. I’m sure that will comfort them as they face systematic rape, genital mutilation, premature marriage and the total lack of political rights.

            You just proved my point. Many reports say that men are systematically raped as a tool of war just as often. In plenty of countries, boys have their genitals mutilated. Plenty of boys are forced into marriage or forced into sex trafficking. Plenty of POOR PEOPLE of both genders lack political power. And while I’m sure there’s plenty of *types* of oppression only females face (Honor killings come to mind), there’s also different types forced on males, like being forced into being soldiers. The fact that the news typically only gives a shit about the female victims of these evil regimes doesn’t mean male victims don’t exist. It’s as I already explained: wherever a culture treats women as house slaves, it’s almost guaranteed it will also treat men like field slaves.

            >Please google “women in the industrial revolution”, you may be surprised to find that women and children also worked in the same horrible conditions as men…the difference being that were paid even less.

            I don’t doubt that, but one single example doesn’t disprove a pattern. Also, I have a hunch that during this time, a vast majority of the workplace *deaths* were men.

            >I appreciate the generations of feminist men and women who came before me and fought sometimes with their lives for the freedom that I have now. I will not let an ignorant reactionary dickhead like yourself tell me that I have nothing to be grateful for because women were never lynched therefore what was all the fuss about.

            You completely mischaracterize my argument. Saying that women’s oppression isn’t the same as slavery isn’t saying it’s a cakewalk. I’m not even arguing against female oppression. I’m saying that BOTH genders have been oppressed, but that so far only ONE of them has had a movement advocating for their rights. Feminism in the past was devoted to making men and women legal under the law, and it had a lot of great victories in that area. You can absolutely be grateful to that. But now, men are starting to realize that there are plenty of issues affecting them that haven’t been resolved. Now it’s men that are unequal under the law. We just want feminists to not oppose us in doing the same thing they’ve done.

          • dumbledoraexplorer

            Most of your arguments are based on anecdotal evidence from the conversations you have had with feminists and “hunches”. It’s completely ridiculous. When I say that women have historically been the second class gender that is not suggesting we have WON some important victory against racial and religious minorities to be the most oppressed group in history. That is what I mean by saying that oppression is not a competition. I have compared the struggles that women faced to get equality as being similar to those that racial minorities have faced…by this I mean the process to reform. Both groups have had to march, and protest and demand equality. They have a shared a common history of struggle. I don’t believe I compared the oppression that they faced or tried to suggest that gender inequality was as bad as slavery. (Although, some feminists could make an argument that whilst women were not treated anywhere near as badly as African American slaves, for example, they were still the legal property of their husbands or fathers, any wages they earned became the property of their husbands or fathers, and women had no control over their bodies or political rights). But leaving that aside, there is nothing wrong with men like yourself campaigning for gender equality in areas where you believe men are disadvantaged. It is perfectly reasonable to talk about the disadvantages men face in custody battles or the social stigma that still exists in some places for stay at home fathers, or whatever other issue you think is important. But the way to do that is by working with feminists and other people who want gender EQUALITY not by minimising the struggles that women have faced.

          • Alex Reynard

            >But leaving that aside, there is nothing wrong with men like yourself campaigning for gender equality in areas where you believe men are disadvantaged.

            Cool. No problem then.

            >But the way to do that is by working with feminists and other people who want gender EQUALITY

            Ah, now there’s a problem. Because feminists are the biggest roadblock to the MRM. I unfortunately can’t find the link to it, but recently a Canadian MRM group wanted to open up a men’s crisis center. Area feminists are trying to stop them, and calling them a hate movement. There’s also things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

          • dumbledoraexplorer

            I certainly don’t agree with what was happening in the video. Freedom of speech is clearly a central feature of a civilised society. But, you should remember that just because two people are feminists it does not mean that they agree on everything or anything else. Part of the problem is that when you deny the struggle that women have faced to get equality, it makes feminists become very defensive. They are then mistrusting of what may be a genuine attempt to address the disadvantages that men face, because they think you are trying to reverse generations of hard fought progress for women’s rights.

          • JonathanNathan

            “The huge majority of feminists I’ve ever seen believe completely in the idea that women were historically worse off than men and still are.”–Yeah, it’s crazy how feminists believe in facts and shit like that.

            “Many of them are offended by the very idea of men’s rights”–Yeah, maybe if the MRM wasn’t so baldly misogynistic, they wouldn’t be offended by it. Just a thought.

            “I’m perfectly aware of that, and I’m still disagreeing with the idea.”–Because you’re an asshole.

            “Many reports say that men are systematically raped as a tool of war just as often. In plenty of countries, boys have their genitals mutilated. Plenty of boys are forced into marriage or forced into sex trafficking.”–Nice weasel words, but would you care to source this?

            “Because feminists are the biggest roadblock to the MRM.”–Find me ONE Men’s Rights website that isn’t misogynistic.

          • Alex Reynard

            In my disagreements with feminists, I’ve encountered people like you so many times I’m dead sick of them: You contribute nothing. You insult my arguments, you insult me personally, you demand proof, but the one thing your kind never does is Prove That Your Beliefs Work Better.

            1. Please explain how women have been *worse off* than men throughout history and explain why you think this is a fact. You can certainly point to oppressive gender roles for women, but these have to be compared to men being worked to death, sent to war, and having their deaths and injuries ignored because it’s ‘normal’.

            2. Please define misogyny. I’ve never seen rampant hatred of women in the MRM, unless it’s hating *specific* women for *specific* reasons. And if that’s how we’re defining it, it’s misandry whenever feminists hate Rush Limbaugh because he happens to be a man. Or maybe there’s a difference between just blindly hating an entire group for being that group, and hating specific ideas, attitudes and laws that group endorses.

            3. You’re a poopy doodoohead. See how that doesn’t actually add anything to the discussion?

            4. http://bit.ly/16jUZlH And if you doubt that boys are forced into becoming sex slaves or unwilling grooms in arranged marriages (who do you think the brides marry?), I can’t imagine how.

            5. If you’re determined to believe the movement is misogynistic, you will see misogyny anywhere I could possibly link you to. But because you asked, here’s one of the most prominent voices in the MRM: http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat/videos?sort=da&flow=grid&view=0

          • JonathanNathan

            “You contribute nothing. You insult my arguments, you insult me personally, you demand proof, but the one thing your kind never does is Prove That Your Beliefs Work Better.”–You don’t like women. I owe you zero courtesy. The question is not whether my beliefs work better; the question is what’s right. The end.

            “Please explain how women have been *worse off* than men throughout history and explain why you think this is a fact.”–Rape. Being considered property. Rape. Not getting to vote. Rape. Having a sense of inferiority inculcated in them from the cradle to the grave. Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaape. Being taught there’s basically no correct way to be a woman and that men will always find a way to hate them. And that’s compared to…what, men had to go to work? Whatever.

            “I’ve never seen rampant hatred of women in the MRM”–I’ve written so much about why the men’s rights movement is misogynistic. At a certain point, there’s not much of a reason for me to keep going if you can’t read the shit that I write.

            “4. http://bit.ly/16jUZlH And if you doubt that boys are forced into becoming sex slaves or unwilling grooms in arranged marriages (who do you think the brides marry?), I can’t imagine how.”–Still no sourcing for your claims that these things happen as often to men as they do to women. You’re just basically assuming that they must because REASONS.

            “But because you asked, here’s one of the most prominent voices in the MRM”–Oooooh, tokenism. Way to go, you got a self-loathing woman. Am I meant to be impressed?

          • Alex Reynard

            >You don’t like women. I owe you zero courtesy.

            Hey, guess what? I can lie about you too! You hate puppies and Bill Murray and chocolate! Now get out of my sight you horrible chocolate puppy hater!

            >The question is not whether my beliefs work better; the question is what’s right.

            Ah, I get it now. I’m just supposed to believe that you’re right on *faith*. Is this like how reality proves that there are no negative consequences to gay marriage, yet Christians still think it’s morally right to oppose it?

            >Rape.

            Men are raped too. Men are the majority of prison rape victims. And when organizations like the CDC do a massive sexual violence survey, they don’t bother to count it when women rape men. They call it “forced to penetrate” instead. And in their survey, the exact same percentage of women reported being raped as men reported being “forced to penetrate”. Why, it’s almost as if rape is not a gendered crime but it conflicts with our instincts to acknowledge that so we stick to the traditional gender roles of ‘man abuser; woman victim’.

            >Being considered property.

            Pretty sure there were lots of male slaves. Also, isn’t it treating a man like property for a government drafting him into a war?

            >Not getting to vote.

            Pretty sure that happened to a lot of black and non-land-owning men too.

            >Having a sense of inferiority inculcated in them from the cradle to the grave.

            Kinda like all human beings feel sometimes?

            >Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaape.

            No matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn’t change the fact that a woman forcing a man to have sex through threats, blackmail, drugs, age difference, position of authority or use of weapons is still rape, no matter how few prosecutors will recognize that fact.

            >Being taught there’s basically no correct way to be a woman and that men will always find a way to hate them.

            Again, I’m pretty sure that all human beings feel this way about themselves and other people sometimes.

            >And that’s compared to…what, men had to go to work? Whatever.

            If women were over 90% of all workplace deaths, I’ll bet you’d give a shit then.

            >I’ve written so much about why the men’s rights movement is misogynistic. At a certain point, there’s not much of a reason for me to keep going if you can’t read the shit that I write.

            If you can’t show me proof, then all that writing was wasted effort.

            >Still no sourcing for your claims that these things happen as often to men as they do to women. You’re just basically assuming that they must because REASONS.

            So logical proofs don’t matter to you? You need to be linked to some article that states it plainly? Like that link I just gave you maybe? Also, do you not have Google yourself?

            >Oooooh, tokenism. Way to go, you got a self-loathing woman. Am I meant to be impressed?

            I’m done being polite with you, you stupid scumbag pile of vomit. Karen Straughn, Typhon Blue, Shieldwife and Erin Pizzey are all women and all of them are smarter and better human beings than you’ll ever be. Christ, I’d give a kidney to see any of them debate you live, and watch you crumple like a used condom in the sun. YOU WANT TO CALL ME A MISOGYNIST, AND THEN DISMISS A WOMAN’S YEARS OF WORK OUT OF HAND BECAUSE SHE DOESN’T SHARE YOUR INFALLIBLE BELIEFS? YOU WORTHLESS BIGOT.

          • JonathanNathan

            Careful, buttercup. You’re liable to give yourself a heart attack.

          • Alex Reynard

            Yeah, I didn’t think you’d be able to actually respond to that.

          • JonathanNathan

            To what? Your incoherent, rambly, all-caps yelling? Not much to say in response to someone that unhinged, is there?

          • Alex Reynard

            If you want to choose to act as if I didn’t make any actual arguments, or if you want to play dumb like you couldn’t understand them, that’s fine. But the reality is, the only reason I consider myself an MRA is because I think the facts are on their side. Not to say that feminism is never right. But there are dogmatic beliefs in the movement that often keep it from seeing beyond half-truths. I believe that feminism has rarely, if ever, fought for equality. Actions speak louder than rhetoric, and the political actions of feminism show they are only interested in gaining power for women. And I’d be fine with that if they were upfront about it. Not this lie that ‘feminism = equality, period’ and no other viewpoints on gender issues can be allowed.

            Frankly, if you hate MRAs so much, let us speak and ignore us. If we’re so obviously wrong, eventually we’ll shrivel up and blow away like any other fad idea. We’re only a threat to you if we happen to be right. And the efforts of feminism to insult, shame and censor the MRM into silence look an awful lot like you’re afraid to have people actually listen to our ideas.

            I’ll leave you with a question though: if society really is a Patriarchy built to suppress women for the benefit of men, then why isn’t the MRM far more powerful than feminism already?

          • JonathanNathan

            “Actions speak louder than rhetoric, and the political actions of feminism show they are only interested in gaining power for women.”–You have invented a fictional world in which this is true because if you had to actually confront reality you would be forced to acknowledge your male privilege. Rather than do that and become a decent human being, you choose to deny reality.

            “Frankly, if you hate MRAs so much, let us speak and ignore us. If we’re so obviously wrong, eventually we’ll shrivel up and blow away like any other fad idea. We’re only a threat to you if we happen to be right.”–Then why don’t you do that with regard to feminists? Oh wait, I know why: because that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

            “And the efforts of feminism to insult, shame and censor the MRM into silence look an awful lot like you’re afraid to have people actually listen to our ideas.”–Am I afraid that people will listen to the rape apologetics, the pro-patriarchy ideas, the victim-blaming, the slut-shaming, the chauvinism? Yes. I am afraid of that.

            “I’ll leave you with a question though: if society really is a Patriarchy built to suppress women for the benefit of men, then why isn’t the MRM far more powerful than feminism already?”–Because it doesn’t need to be. Same reason the black civil rights movement is more powerful than white-power groups. When you already run shit, you don’t really need activism.

          • Alex Reynard

            >You have invented a fictional world in which this is true because if you had to actually confront reality you would be forced to acknowledge your male privilege. Rather than do that and become a decent human being, you choose to deny reality.

            Okay, show me some instances of mainstream feminist groups doing anything that primarily benefits men, or reduces female privilege. Show me anything disproving the idea that they primarily act to give more benefits to women, and if men are helped too it’s a secondary concern.

            Also, at what point am I not acknowledging male privilege? My entire point is that gender roles benefit AND punish BOTH genders based on whether you conform to or disobey them, and feminism acknowledges only half of this equation.

            >Then why don’t you do that with regard to feminists?

            For the same reason that atheists care about religion: because I think that some laws based on its dogma are unjust.

            >Am I afraid that people will listen to the rape apologetics, the pro-patriarchy ideas, the victim-blaming, the slut-shaming, the chauvinism? Yes. I am afraid of that.

            Way to show that you have absolutely no interest in representing the MRM fairly. Advocating on behalf of male rape victims and men wrongly accused of rape is not excusing female rape. MRAs do not want a return to 1950s traditionalism because gender roles suck for men too. There’s nothing wrong with blaming a victim who is genuinely partly responsible. Also, slut-shaming!? How can we simultaneously be porn-loving objectifiers of women and also slut-shamers? And chauvinism is just a plain insult so it can be ignored.

            And again, if that’s all you think we offer, why *fear* that? If we’re as full of shit as you say we are, we’ll self-destruct on our own. The more attention you give us, the more free publicity you’re giving us.

            >Because it doesn’t need to be. Same reason the black civil rights movement is more powerful than white-power groups. When you already run shit, you don’t really need activism.

            Okay, I don’t agree, but that’s at least a clever counterpoint.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Okay, show me some instances of mainstream feminist groups doing anything that primarily benefits men, or reduces female privilege.”–Your problem is that you start from a place of believing in “female privilege.” It doesn’t exist. Women are the marginalized group and you have provided zero reasons to believe otherwise.

            “There’s nothing wrong with blaming a victim who is genuinely partly responsible.”–The fact that you think a victim could ever be responsible for her own rape is disgusting, and so is any person who would make such a claim.

            “Also, slut-shaming!? How can we simultaneously be porn-loving objectifiers of women and also slut-shamers?”–Men have been objectifying women and shaming them for being sex objects simultaneously for centuries. One sees it all the time in the MRM, in fact. MRAs and PUAs will talk about women as objects that exist only for sexual gratification and then turn right around and lambast them for “riding the cock carousel.”

            “And again, if that’s all you think we offer, why *fear* that? If we’re as full of shit as you say we are, we’ll self-destruct on our own.”–It’s been thousands of years and you’re still here, still in command, still waging a war against women. Ignoring you hasn’t worked, has it?

          • Alex Reynard

            >Your problem is that you start from a place of believing in “female privilege.” It doesn’t exist.

            O.O

            You, who just told me to be aware of my male privileged, are so deluded you think female privilege doesn’t exist. How Are You Real!?

            Tell me these aren’t privileges: not being drafted – lighter sentences from judges and juries – society being more willing in general to excuse unnacceptable behavior from you because you’re pretty – more funding going towards women’s health issues than men – longer lifespans – not being expected to work – not being expected to die for their country – much more likely to be believed if they are the victim of rape or violence – preferential treatment in family and divorce courts. And that’s just off the top of my head.

            If male privilege is greater freedom and power, female privilege is greater protection and sympathy.

            >The fact that you think a victim could ever be responsible for her own rape is disgusting, and so is any person who would make such a claim.

            That’s nice that you have that opinion, but I don’t care. And where did I say I blame victims of rape? If someone walks on train tracks with headphones on and gets hit with a train, is that not an example of a victim who’s partly responsible?

            >Men have been objectifying women and shaming them for being sex objects simultaneously for centuries. One sees it all the time in the MRM, in fact. MRAs and PUAs will talk about women as objects that exist only for sexual gratification

            Stop right there. Thanks for confirming that you have no idea what the difference is between the two groups. I guess because it’s all just a bunch of men. They all look alike, right?

            >It’s been thousands of years and you’re still here, still in command, still waging a war against women. Ignoring you hasn’t worked, has it?

            Thanks for confirming that you don’t understand the difference between men in power, men in general, and the men’s right’s movement. I guess it’s too much trouble to bother differentiating. They all look alike, right?

            Only a tiny fraction of men are in power. Most men are getting fucked over because, like most women, they aren’t RICH. And the MRM has existed for maybe decades, certainly not millions of years. For crying out loud, I have no trouble understanding that ‘feminists’ and ‘women’ are two different categories!

          • JonathanNathan

            Everything you list there is either provably false or just another manifestation of a society which infantilizes women and teaches them that they’re delicate flowers.

            “And where did I say I blame victims of rape? If someone walks on train tracks with headphones on and gets hit with a train, is that not an example of a victim who’s partly responsible?”–That’s a little different than saying a woman who wears revealing clothing is asking for it. Especially because there’s literally ZERO indication that anything a woman does–short of becoming a total shut-in–actually decreases her likelihood of being raped. People get raped wearing sweatpants.

            “Thanks for confirming that you have no idea what the difference is between the two groups. I guess because it’s all just a bunch of men. They all look alike, right?”–PUAs are just MRAs with hard-ons.

            “Thanks for confirming that you don’t understand the difference between men in power, men in general, and the men’s right’s movement. I guess it’s too much trouble to bother differentiating. They all look alike, right?”–Men in general are in power. MRAs are the assholes who want to keep it that way. Men like me would prefer a more just society. That’s the difference.

            “Only a tiny fraction of men are in power.”–All things being equal, men are more in power than women are.

            “And the MRM has existed for maybe decades, certainly not millions of years.”–Under its current name, sure. But the movement in favor of the patriarchy has existed for as long as the patriarchy has: the entirety of human civilization.

            “For crying out loud, I have no trouble understanding that ‘feminists’ and ‘women’ are two different categories!”–Obviously they are. I am one and I am not the other. Just as out of the two categories “men and “MRAs” I am one and not the other.

          • Alex Reynard

            >Everything you list there is either provably false

            Provably. And yet you don’t.

            >or just another manifestation of a society which infantilizes women and teaches them that they’re delicate flowers.

            And you honestly can’t see how that could be used to someone’s advantage?

            Actually think about that word ‘infantilize’. How do we treat infants, other than just denying them agency? They are not expected to be responsible for their actions. They are provided for. Taken care of. Protected from harm. And when they cry, we jump to fix whatever’s wrong.

            Try to get over this ‘grass is greener on the other side’ thinking. Both traditional gender roles have privileges and disadvantages. So long as feminists can keep playing alpha-victim, they get all the sympathy. Yet until they acknowledge female privilege, they will never get out of their traditional gender role. …Which is defined by not taking responsibility for their actions!

            >That’s a little different than saying a woman who wears revealing clothing is asking for it.

            I _never_ said that. And I have never seen any MRA ever make that argument.

            >Especially because there’s literally ZERO indication that anything a woman does–short of becoming a total shut-in- actually decreases her likelihood of being raped.

            She can keep an eye on her drink. She can let people know where she’ll be when she goes out with someone she’s unsure of. She can tell a date to come back to her place instead of his. She can be careful about how much alcohol or drugs she takes when she’s around people she doesn’t completely trust. She can carry mace. She can take a self-defense class.

            True, even taking all these steps will not 100% protect against rape, but can you deny that simple precautions like these would decrease her risk?

            >PUAs are just MRAs with hard-ons.

            Actually, the biggest difference is that MRAs want to change the system; PUAs want to game it.

            >Men in general are in power.

            HAHAHAA!! Then where’s my power? Where’s the power of all the homeless men? Did you ever take any classes in economics? Yes, more men than women may be in overt positions of power but the one thing that ALL people in power have in common is WEALTH.

            >MRAs are the assholes who want to keep it that way. Men like me would prefer a more just society. That’s the difference.

            Then there’s actually no difference between our goals. MRAs don’t give a shit whether there’s women in congress of the boardrooms. We just want better conditions for average men. The ones not in power. Many of us will say that we don’t feel like our interests have ever been fairly represented, no matter how testosterone-choked the government happens to be.

            Feminists seem to have the idea that men in power will look out for the interests of men in general. Nope! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491274

            >All things being equal, men are more in power than women are.

            A larger tiny fraction is still a tiny fraction.

            And I’ll bet the wives of powerful men benefit plenty from their husband’s positions. Remember Tipper Gore creating the PMRC? How many other unelected housewives would have the power to do that? There are such things as overt and covert positions of power.

            >Under its current name, sure. But the movement in favor of the patriarchy has existed for as long as the patriarchy has: the entirety of human civilization.

            Please stop pretending like MRAs support patriarchal gender roles. Those are the ones that make men disposable. Patriarchy is what causes piles of male corpses. There may be some traditionalist MRAs, but most of the ones I’ve seen are egalitarian. Even the traditionalist ones want people to have the *choice* to conform to or disobey natural gender roles.

            >Obviously they are. I am one and I am not the other. Just as out of the two categories “men and “MRAs” I am one and not the other.

            I know. And?

          • JonathanNathan

            “Provably. And yet you don’t.”–At a certain point one tires of trying to prove anything to folks like you. You’ll simply deny whatever I say.

            “And you honestly can’t see how that could be used to someone’s advantage?”–Oh holy shit, seriously? You’re actually claiming it’s a good thing to be infantilized? Are you really this fucking dense?

            “I _never_ said that. And I have never seen any MRA ever make that argument.”–Yes you did, and I’ve seen almost every MRA make that argument.

            “She can keep an eye on her drink. She can let people know where she’ll be when she goes out with someone she’s unsure of. She can tell a date to come back to her place instead of his. She can be careful about how much alcohol or drugs she takes when she’s around people she doesn’t completely trust. She can carry mace. She can take a self-defense class.”–So in other words she can live her entire life in fear, restructure her entire way of existing around prevention of violent sexual attacks, all for the sake of–according to the data–a negligible decline in the likelihood that such an attack will be perpetrated against her. Yes, it’s a beautiful world you’re asking women to live in. Just shut up and enjoy being treated like children, being denied agency, and living in constant terror. Now go make me a sandwich and have some babies before I smack you!

            “Actually, the biggest difference is that MRAs want to change the system; PUAs want to game it.”–Sure, buttercup. Whatever you say.

            “Then where’s my power?”–If all other things are equal, a man has the upper hand. If a woman of equal qualifications is applying for the same job as you, you are more likely to get it. If a woman is doing as good of a job at work as you, and in the same position, you are more likely to receive commendation and/or promotion. If a woman lives in a similar situation to yours, she is more likely to be sexually assaulted–and more likely to be the victim of a mugging. And so on and so forth. It doesn’t mean there aren’t some women who have more power than you in certain areas. It means that if all else is equal, a man has more power than a woman.

            “MRAs don’t give a shit whether there’s women in congress of the boardrooms.”–Then why do so many of them piss and moan about women in Congress and boardrooms?

            “Please stop pretending like MRAs support patriarchal gender roles.”–I’ll stop saying it when they stop doing it.

            “I know. And?”–It’s pretty clear you think I’m a woman masquerading as a man.

          • Alex Reynard

            >At a certain point one tires of trying to prove anything to folks like you. You’ll simply deny whatever I say.

            Golly, I’m sure that’s not just a convenient cop out.

            >Oh holy shit, seriously? You’re actually claiming it’s a good thing to be infantilized? Are you really this fucking dense?

            Yeah, and then I went on to explain in detail exactly *how*. If you didn’t bother reading that part, it’s not my fault if you’re flabbergasted at the idea.

            >Yes you did, and I’ve seen almost every MRA make that argument.

            I did not, at any point, say that what a woman wears affects her chances of being raped. Stop lying.

            >So in other words she can live her entire life in fear, restructure her entire way of existing around prevention of violent sexual attacks, all for the sake of–according to the data–a negligible decline in the likelihood that such an attack will be perpetrated against her.
            I didn’t say that every single one of those suggestions was *mandatory*. I just listed some possibilities. And are you really so dishonest that you’d look at simple things like letting someone know where you’ll be on a date, or going back to your place instead of his, and call that “living in a world of fear”? Is it “living in a world of fear” to buy a smoke detector, or lock your car doors, or get regular medical checkups?

            >Yes, it’s a beautiful world you’re asking women to live in. Just shut up and enjoy being treated like children

            I’m pretty sure that it’s more infantilizing to women for people like you to act like it’s asking far too much of them that they show any responsibility for their own safety.

            >Now go make me a sandwich and have some babies before I smack you!

            I’m embarrassed for you that this is what you’re reduced to responding with.

            >Sure, buttercup. Whatever you say.

            So when you can’t argue against a point of mine, it’s equally effective to just deny it with an insult?

            >If a woman of equal qualifications is applying for the same job as you, you are more likely to get it.

            If a woman and I are accused of committing the same crime, she is more likely to be acquitted.

            >If a woman is doing as good of a job at work as you, and in the same position, you are more likely to receive commendation and/or promotion.

            A woman is more likely to receive better health care. She’ll live five years longer on average. And she has 100% of the choice in a relationship over reproductive matters.

            Do you get the pattern? Just mentioning examples of bad things happening to women doesn’t prove anything because you’re not allowing comparisons. I could try to “prove” that women aren’t oppressed because they don’t have to deal with the same problems as men. It’s a dead end. We need to stop playing Who’s Alpha Victim and acknowledge that, if ANY group is discriminated against or at a disadvantage, that needs to be addressed.

            >If a woman lives in a similar situation to yours, she is more likely to be sexually assaulted–and more likely to be the victim of a mugging.

            The fact that our culture defines sexual assault as a crime where only female victims matter means that men don’t report it, and instead convince themselves that it wasn’t really so bad, or that they were “lucky”. Until that’s factored in, I don’t think we have a full picture of the issue. And while I personally doubt that women are mugged more often, I concede that they might be, and maybe it’s for the simple reason that it’s a lot easier to snatch a purse than it is to force someone to dig out their wallet.

            >It doesn’t mean there aren’t some women who have more power than you in certain areas. It means that if all else is equal, a man has more power than a woman.

            …ONLY IN SOME SITUATIONS. This is not hard to understand.

            >Then why do so many of them piss and moan about women in Congress and boardrooms?

            They don’t, unless they’re unhappy with the specific actions of specific women.

            >It’s pretty clear you think I’m a woman masquerading as a man.

            Okay, you’re fucking crazy.

            To be clear: that thought NEVER entered my mind. You’re paranoid, projecting, or just nuts.

          • Bastet

            You ask if anything comparable to slavery and lynchings has ever happened to women.

            Off the top of my head: The Maleus Maleficarum and the following 200 years of witch burnings.

            Sex slavery which is still happening today.

            ‘Spoils of war’ whereby women of breeding age were enslaved by the victors and forced into being breeders for the replenishing and integration of the population.

            Women being stoned to death (still happening today)
            Child brides as young as 6 years old.

            Acid attacks.

            Female genital mutilation (which was done in the west at Freuds recommendation.

            The ‘rule of thumb’. Aka, legally allowing wife beating with a stick no wider than the thumb…

          • JonathanNathan

            He’s just gonna say that all of those things actually happened just as often to men as they did to women. He’s a very deluded person.

    • Alex Reynard

      If men benefit from feminism, why are there still virtually no men’s domestic violence shelters and male circumcision is still legal?

      That’s the bare minimum I would expect from a movement claiming to work towards “equality”. Or are they going to solve all of the women’s problem’s first and THEN get around to helping men when there’s nothing else left they can think of to make equal for women? Load up one side of the seesaw to the sky and then start putting stuff on the other end?

      • Joel Conley

        So do you want to work together for equality or do you want to build up a wall, work separately and then tear it down later to see if we’re all equal? We’re all on the same side. Opposing feminism isn’t helpful. Also, check your male privilege before you speak again.

        • Alex Reynard

          So you’re saying that feminism is the only path to equality? I reject that for the same reasons I reject the idea that you can only be moral through religion.

          Feminism is not equality. It is, on a practical level, an evtremely powerful and well-funded political ideology. Probably second only to Evangelicals in terms of current influence over both parties. It has been dominating the cultural discourse on gender for decades. When a single voice has a monopoly, that needs to be opposed.

          I am perfectly fine working with men AND women. And I’m fine with staying out of feminism’s way when it’s working towards its goals. All I ask is that it do the same for men’s issues.

          >Also, check your male privilege before you speak again.

          You said that without irony, didn’t you? Sorry, but I will not “check my privilege”. That phrase has no practical meaning other than, “You need to shut up because of your gender and only have the *appropriate* opinions.” Thank you for demonstrating better than I could why feminism is a danger to open discourse.

          • Joel Conley

            You’re straw-manning feminism through your own flawed perception of what it is. You’re probably right to be opposed to whatever is in your mind but it seems your conception of it is all second-hand.There is nothing about feminism that is “anti-men”.

            And yes, understanding and admitting your own privilege is the first step one needs to take before they can properly consider any subject about rights. I’m a white, middle-class male in North America so the first thing I need to do is recognize that I have access to certain advantages over a lot of other people. That doesn’t mean I should feel guilty for existing, it’s just a simple acknowledgment that goes a long way to understanding. There’s a reason there are tons of male feminists and exactly zero female men’s rights activists.

          • Alex Reynard

            >There’s a reason there are tons of male feminists and exactly zero female men’s rights activists.

            Thanks for showing me that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Some of the biggest names in the Men’s Rights movement are women, notably GirlWritesWhat(Karen Straughn) and Typhon Blue. Also, look up Erin Pizzey, the woman who started the first women’s domestic violence shelter in Britain, possibly the world, and one of the most outspoken critics of feminism on the planet. She has more firsthand experience with the subject than you or I could imagine, so I trust her descriptions of feminism considerably more than yours.

          • Joel Conley

            Will do, then.

      • Bastet

        So, what exactly are YOU doing about this?

  • fuckfeminists

    absolutely disgusting

    Fucking feminist i hate you all

    • JonathanNathan

      Well that’s just a very reasonable argument.

      • Derek Hatfield

        Jonathan, his argument is just as well based and researched as yours. Cheers

    • Titsky Dinkerwiggle

      Spoken like a man with no women in his life.

  • Undefyned Poet

    Good article but you could have stated and if a male feminist is gay, who cares in the bit about the misconception that you have to be gay to be a male feminist. But again, great article

    • JonathanNathan

      That’s why I linked to the piece about my thoughts on being gay. I didn’t want to conflate two issues too much.

  • Jon Capricci

    You contradict your 1st point with your second, in that leftwing hit pieces like this characterize all non-feminists as “rapists” when women have more rights in society these days than men do already!

    • JonathanNathan

      Yeah that’s not actually what I said. What I actually said was that if you’re not a feminist, you are less likely to know what actually constitutes rape, which makes you more likely to commit rape on accident. It happens all the time.

      Also, women have more rights? Last I checked they were still making 75 cents on the dollar for the same work. Interesting.

      • Terrier Hockey
        • JonathanNathan

          Oh look, the same one source every other apologist uses to “refute” the facts. You’re right, every other source in the universe is wrong because you have one biased douchebag telling you so.

  • Ben

    Hey Jonathan, some very good points but I disagree vehemently with the first one. There isn’t just one form of feminism and though I’m strongly in support of equality, I don’t support radicals of any creed. There are feminists out there who’s goal is to be more empowered than men or to use drastic tactics to achieve equality, and there’s a definite moral argument against them.

    Also, it’d be nice to use a few actual examples for point 3. Though I don’t doubt you, it’s a pretty vague statement.

    • JonathanNathan

      My response to your first point would be similar to the response of any Muslim, Christian, or Jew to the notion that because one member of the faith did something messed up, that means the whole religion is intrinsically violent. That, to me, is not really feminism. Feminism, at its core, is about equality. You will be extremely hard-pressed to find any mainstream feminists that think the things you’re talking about. At any rate, I’m not saying men should be “that kind” of feminist. I’m saying men should be feminists, and there’s no moral argument against that.

      When it came to point 3, I basically had to make some choices regarding word count.

  • Jon Capricci

    What evidence of the .75/dollar thing you have for the exact same work? All feminists characterize hetrosexual men as rapists never mind your explanation of you wording it differently. More like 75% of retail shopping space is for women? Women win 75% of custody case? Women and mens roles aren’t stereotypes, there are biological reasons for them to teach differently is to mislead. As i’m sure you have been.

    • JonathanNathan

      Women do not win 75% of custody cases. And there is no biological research to support the notion that different gender roles are genetic. I’m a man and I know how to cook and clean; I know plenty of women who know how to build a bookshelf and change a tire.

      • Jon Capricci

        What biological research do you need to know that men don’t get pregnant? Are you saying they should all go to term without assistance from the father as “empowerment”? The state pays them to do this, not men. To say there is no bias towards women in child custody cases is ridiculous, false rape allegations, and in domestic violence cases. I agree with the other commenter you are a willing patsy. And now I know you hate conservatives when can I expect my IRS audit?

        • JonathanNathan

          1) So women get pregnant. And?
          2) What is this “without assistance from the father”? What are you talking about?
          3) Mothers receive primary custody in 68% of cases. That’s not sole custody. The most frequently cited reason for this is that the mother tended to provide the majority of what was termed “caregiving” before the divorce. Ironically, if more men were willing to be stay-at-home dads, those same men would be more likely to win custody after an eventual divorce.
          4) “False rape allegations” Whatever dude. I’ve managed to go 27 years without ever having been accused of rape. What am I, just lucky?

          • Jon Capricci

            You say there’s no “biological research” for gender roles and say pregnancy doesn’t make men different from women. You agree there’s bias in custody cases then defend it, and you are 1 guy not 1 of the thousands who have done time not because of rape but because they did something to piss her off and she accused them. There are other biases 2 like retail space, government programs, and sexual harassment cases etc. Tell the women of Saudi Arabia how repressed North American women are sister, and I’m definitely not your dude.

          • JonathanNathan

            There’s not “bias” in custody cases. The parent who was more of the caretaker gets primary–not sole–custody. That’s not bias, that’s good policy.

            Also, you know you can’t be convicted of a crime just because someone accuses you, right? There has to be evidence. That’s the way the law works.

          • Jon Capricci

            I know the biological difference between men and women and yes, you can be convicted by a women’s accusations as rape is difficult to prove and I’m not a moron. 68% is obviously a bias and you do not know the details of the cases, do you? What about all the other biases I listed? Factoid er up Jim

          • JonathanNathan

            68% would be bias if there were not a reason for it. But research shows that primary custody is awarded to the parent who most fulfilled the role of caretaker. That’s not bias. You don’t seem to understand what bias actually is.

            Regarding “retail space” bias: Who gives a shit? Are you really feeling oppressed by the lack of men’s clothing stores or whatever it is you’re bitching about? Are you seriously whining about this?

            “you can be convicted by a women’s accusations as rape is difficult to prove”–No. You cannot be convicted solely by accusation. That has literally never happened. You’re not making sense. “Rape is difficult to prove,” yet apparently all they need is an accusation? Are you dense or something?

            Only 26% of rape reports result in arrest. Only 20% result in prosecution. Only 10% result in conviction. Only 6% result in jail time. And this is leaving aside the 54% of rapes that go unreported. So tell me again about how tough it is for men out there.

          • Jon Capricci

            What doesn’t make sense about women making false rape accusations that stick after they have sex(which they then say was rape? What doesn’t make sense about liberals like you resorting to name calling when you are disagreed with in debate? Is it that time of the month sweetie pie? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_aj6aXxJqw&list=PLC38A204FA89F0188

          • JonathanNathan

            Can’t argue with the facts, li’l guy. Only 10% of rape reports result in conviction, and only 6% result in jail time.

          • Jon Capricci

            You ever source these factoids u throw out? And whose a little guy bitch I’d wreck you, loser.

          • JonathanNathan

            Source: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

            Take it easy with the temper, li’l buddy. You’re gonna give yourself an ulcer.

          • Derek Hatfield

            Typical feminist. You can’t deal with serious challenges, so you resort to insults and condescension.

          • JonathanNathan

            Actually, I’m the only person in this comment thread providing sourcing and data for what I’m talking about.

          • Derek Hatfield

            And we are telling you that your sourcing is not only biased but it does not reflect the true status of women. Nor does it reveal the experience that men have with women. Simple. But keep “throughing” out those “statistics” because it means you don’t have to think.

          • Jon Capricci

            How can they have a stat for unreported rapes?

          • JonathanNathan

            It’s based on hospital reports, reports to rape crisis lines, behavioral science, polling of men, polling of women, and various statistical models.

          • Jon Capricci

            Soooooo then they are reported . . .why bother I have seen your other propaganda articles, Benghazi is a non issue etc. I am not the only one disagreeing with you Obama, who this probably is.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Unreported” refers to whether a crime has been reported to the authorities, not whether it has been reported to anyone at all in the universe.

            “Benghazi is a non issue etc.”–Yeah, even the Republicans have dropped Benghazi dude. It’s a non-issue.

          • Jon Capricci

            your 1st response: that would make it reported then wouldn’t it in contrast to what your graph says
            Benghazi: yup, gun running’s fine I guess that’s why Hillary stepped down, dead border agents etc. spin er all ya like

          • JonathanNathan

            1) That’s not what “reported” means in that context. You’re acting like a child.
            2) Gun running? I thought we were talking about Benghazi.
            3) Hillary said she would only serve one term all the way back in 2009. Are you saying she’s a clairvoyant?

          • Jon Capricci

            You don’t have “context” in your original statement, Hillary was running guns to the Syrian rebels through Libya arming al quida in Libya so they could kill Stephens who was going to blow the whistle on the whole thing. Your website and anyone who agrees with you is a joke.

          • JonathanNathan

            WOW. And I thought I’d heard ‘em all.

          • Jon Capricci

            U started with the name calling ya clown where’s your sources?

          • Derek Hatfield

            And how many of those “convictions” are based on lies?

          • JonathanNathan

            Since you can’t be convicted of rape without physical evidence, I would hazard a guess of “zero.”

          • Sam

            And yet another hint of misogynist culture: a man who thinks anytime a woman is upset, it is because she is PMSing… Which essentially allows men like you to blow off the emotions of women as a hormonal imbalance that doesn’t represent their true feelings.
            I didn’t really understand the rest of the post though. It would be nice if one of those sentences was a proper sentence…

          • Jon Capricci

            If you had higher than a 4th grade education you could grasp the point as no one was checking me for grammar yutz

          • Derek Hatfield

            If ever you opened a newspaper to see what goes on in the world and educate yourself, you would know that lives can be ruined just by accusations. And women lie about this stuff all the time. You give them more power and we will never be able to find our way through their lies.
            And by the way, because you are obviously a little slow, what Jon Capricci was saying is that women already have a large piece of the pie which they refuse to give credit for. They just keep whining and complaining that they can’t have everything they want. Therefore, they TARGET men and forget the double standards that favour them. If you need me to explain anything else, little man, just let me know…..

          • JonathanNathan

            According to the FBI, only 2-8% of reported rapes are false reports.

            “You give them more power and we will never be able to find our way through their lies.”–Jeez, you really hate women. That must suck for you. You ever think maybe you might just be happier if you were gay?

            “And by the way, because you are obviously a little slow, what Jon Capricci was saying is that women already have a large piece of the pie which they refuse to give credit for.”–I’m sure they’d gladly give up their control over “retail space” (what a ridiculous complaint) in exchange for equal pay for equal work.

            “Therefore, they TARGET men and forget the double standards that favour them. If you need me to explain anything else, little man, just let me know.”–Yeah, explain to me how a society in which 20% of women experience a completed or attempted rape in their lifetimes is somehow dominated by women. Explain to me how a society in which women make 75 cents on the dollar for the same work as a man is a society dominated by women. Explain to me how a society in which upwards of 90% of the victims of domestic violence and sexual violence are women is dominated by women.

          • Derek Hatfield

            Here again, you use statistics like a child. “according to the FBI, only 2-8 % of reported rapes are false reports” And how many innocent men are on death row? Can the FBI tell you that?

            “Jeez, you really hate women.” Who said anything about hating women? I read your article and you very clearly hate men. And since you claim to be a man, that’s pretty sad.

            And again, I will spell it out for you, since you chose to ignore what I again explained for you – it’s not about giving up real estate space, it’s women’s (and your) support of a general, and increasing, double standard which favours women.

            Only 20% of women experience a completed or attempted rape? Are you sure? I’ve heard it was a lot higher! “women make 75 cent on the dollar”. Really. All women? Your generalizations are laughable and demonstrate your lack of clear thinking on this subject and your obvious prejudice. You claim your the only one using “statistics”. However, we are telling you that your “statistics” are ridiculous. Furthermore, your inability to see the broader picture and the true role that men play, and the fact that you can’t grasp that the interaction between men and women (and the problems that women cause themselves and others) cannot be summed up in convenient “statistics” clearly speaks to your age and lack of education on this subject.

            And as far my spelling is concerned, between two evils, I would take mispelling one word over your misguided, uninformed and bigotted attempt to denigrate men any day.

            Honestly, because of your naivete, close-mindedness and fanaticism, you sound like you’re in your 20′s. I suggest you get some more experience in life before you start giving lessons on what everyone should believe.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Here again, you use statistics like a child. “according to the FBI, only 2-8 % of reported rapes are false reports”"–OK, I guess you can refuse to believe the experts. Whatever.

            “Who said anything about hating women?”–You said the following: “Women lie about this stuff all the time. You give them more power and we will never be able to find our way through their lies.” That’s the speech of a man who hates women.

            “I read your article and you very clearly hate men.”–Weird. I’m friends with so many of them.

            “”women make 75 cent on the dollar”. Really. All women?”–As a trend. Not every single woman.

            “However, we are telling you that your “statistics” are ridiculous.”–Right. You don’t believe in math.

          • Derek Hatfield

            ah, no, again, I will tell you, the conclusion you draw from these statistics is self-serving. You actually think that this 2-8 % is accurate. But does the FBI tell you how many innocents are on death row? And you believe the justice system is so perfect that when someone lies, female or male, the system will “find out”? That’s funny. I didn’t realize the justice system was so perfect. And no one else did either. Again, you use the “statistics” as you wish. But don’t tell me they are “science”. There is nothing scientific about the justice system.

            You don’t have to hate women to be wary about the lies that they are capable of telling. Does a woman hate men because she acknowledges and takes precautions against being abused or raped? If she talks about this with her girlfriends is she being hateful? Well, nor is a man. But then again, here is the typical double-standard. Women have permission to criticize and speak out, but men do not. You just call us “mysogenists”…..
            I don’t believe the statistic that women make 75 cents on the dollar (by the way, notice the “cent” is plural? I guess you didn’t do too well in “high school” – I’m sure Rex will have lots ot say about that…..). For that to be true, I would have to see the exact work that the woman is doing, her responsibilities and then the man’s. There is so much feminist bias in too many statistics and they pick and choose the “information” that they broadcast. And anything that favours men will never be heard.

          • JonathanNathan

            “And you believe the justice system is so perfect that when someone lies, female or male, the system will “find out”?”–OK dude. Do you have a better metric for determining how many false rape allegations there are? I mean beyond just saying, “Well I totally know some guys that got accused falsely.” Because that really doesn’t count.

            “You don’t have to hate women to be wary about the lies that they are capable of telling.”–If you think that all of them are out there trying to lie and screw you over? Yeah, that’s kinda hateful.

            “I don’t believe the statistic that women make 75 cents on the dollar”–OK, choose to live in your own fantasy world then. Have fun.

            “by the way, notice the “cent” is plural?”–I was quoting you. Go take a look at the comment I was quoting. You’re the one who failed to use the plural form.

            “There is so much feminist bias in too many statistics and they pick and choose the “information” that they broadcast.”–So basically you just believe whatever you want to believe, and who cares what the evidence says because the Feminist Conspiracy is tampering with it. Go put on your tinfoil hat, son.

          • Derek Hatfield

            Yeah, you are “just lucky” that you haven’t dated a woman who wanted to manipulate you into something, or punish you for something else, or just wanted to target you because she was an evil bitch. Yeah, it happens. I can’t count the number of times that I’ve heard such things.

            Or maybe you’re just gay and no woman would waste her time with you….

          • JonathanNathan

            I’ve dated a couple awful, manipulative, evil women. Women who sometimes wanted to punish me for perceived slights. And I never once got accused of rape. Interesting, isn’t it?

          • Joshua Moody

            John and Derek. Simple question. Have either of you ever been accused of rape? If not, from where does your fixation on false rape allegations come from? Why are you so passionate about this particular injustice?

            Jonathan. Simple question. Do you deny that false rape allegations do happen or that they can ruin the accused’s reputation?

          • Derek Hatfield

            No, I have not been falsely accused of rape or assault. But I know several guys, in several different cities that have been. Furthermore, I have seen news reports where it turns out the accused were innocent, but their lives were ruined. And these are only the ones that I have HEARD about. How many more situations like that exist that we don’t hear on the 6 o’clock news. And this is not a “fixation” as you say. Joshua, these accusations are so serious, and are so destructive to a man’s life (family, professional, social) that it is something that all men should be aware of, and very careful of. I no longer ever assume a man is guilty when his name pops up on the news. False accusations are just too common. Furthermore, all these accusations and “statistics” about rape and assault, etc, greatly affect the credibility and reputation of both myself and you, Joshua. This is something that men should NOT accept.

          • Joshua Moody

            I was just curious. I think that this discussion has derailed from the original purpose. I’d like to bring it back. Jonathan was arguing that we have a culture in America that still operates in a manner which is not in keeping with the ideals of feminism. Right? Okay. Capricci then brought up the “prevalence of false rape allegations against men” as an argument against Jonathan.

            Now personally, I don’t think Capricci’s rebuttal holds any water. And if I were Jonathan, I would not have engaged it, simply because it is irrelevant. The fact is, it does not matter how many false rape allegations happen in this country … for the purposes of this topic.

            Whether one woman or one hundred women falsely accuse a man of raping them every year, how does that relate to Jonathan’s article? He is arguing that we have a way of thinking about rape that needs fixing.

            Of course rape happens. I’m sure it happens more than we know. That’s undeniable.

            And of course, some women accuse men of raping them falsely. It’s also undeniable. It happens.

            I think that you Derek, as well as Capricci, as well as Jonathan and myself … ALL agree that rape is a bad thing and should be punished. Right?

            So we agree on that.

            Rape happens or it doesn’t happen. That’s not the point here. Jonathan is asking us to rethink our definition of rape. Right? To extend beyond mere force, to incorporate such things as persuasion, manipulation, etc.

            So how do the existence of false allegations negate that?

            Is Capricci arguing that the courts of America are too feminist because they sentence men for rape falsely without a fair trial? I hope not, because that’s asinine and paranoid. Sometimes our courts make the wrong decision, but that happens with our legal system. It doesn’t insinuate a sinister plot against men. We try our best to get to the bottom of the facts, we treat rape seriously, and usually we get it right. Sometimes we don’t.

            Again, Jonathan is simply asking us to rethink our definition of rape.

            Let’s keep the topic on that, because this is a point argument right now.

          • Mandy Heath

            “False accusations are just too common.”

            Considering its prevalence is WAY less then ACTUAL rape. I would say that RAPE is too common.

          • JonathanNathan

            No, I don’t deny that they happen. As I said earlier, the FBI has found that 2-8% of rape reports are false.

          • Derek Hatfield

            Interesting? Seriously? You are saying that there is no such thing as false accusations? And that if YOU haven’t been falsely accused of assault or rape, then everyone else is guilty?…Please explain this to me.

          • Mandy Heath

            Can’t you read? He has said multiple times that 2-8% of accusations are false.

      • Terrier Hockey

        You’re right. Women don’t win 75% of custody cases. They win 85% of them.

        http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/latest-u-s-custody-and-child-support-data/

        • JonathanNathan

          So let’s run down the problems with this source:

          1) It’s from a Men’s Rights blog. I’m sure it would take me about three clicks to come up with some sort of Hoinsky-style sexual-assault manifesto.

          2) It relies on two-year-old data.

          3) It relies on Census data. The Census is good for a lot of things, but collecting factually accurate information on who won court cases is not one of them. We already have people gathering that information every year. That’s why we know that the actual figure is 68%, and that in almost every single case, the reason one parent gets more custody (if that’s the way it gets decided) is that one parent was more the caretaker.

    • Mochipants

      Derek, John, the reason you claim to only have dated horrible women is because with attitudes like yours, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. I know I wouldn’t take too kindly to someone who treated me like trash, as you do for all women.

      It’s time to grow up now and realize that you are not the victims of everyone that has a vagina.

      • Jon Capricci

        What could you possibly know about these guys personal relationships? Men are victimized by women constantly, women actually do bad things sometimes, and blaming it on men is bs and so are condescending liberals, which I think is the point here.

        • JonathanNathan

          How is it that every woman you and Derek have ever been with has been some awful, evil, soul-sucking harpy? At a certain point, don’t you have to start asking, “Is it me?”

          • Jon Capricci

            My statements are facts not based on personal relationships why do you always change the subject?

          • JonathanNathan

            Oh, li’l guy, am I making your head hurt?

    • Mandy Heath

      What evidence do you have of this?: All feminists characterize hetrosexual men as rapists
      How can you ask for facts then say something like that which is not even true at all?

      • Jon Capricci

        this article for 1

        • Mandy Heath

          That is not evidence. Not at all. Find me one legitimate source that says that ALL feminists characterize heterosexual men as rapists. Go for it.
          Oooooh wait. I am a feminist and I don’t believe that at all. I guess you’re wrong.

          • Jon Capricci
          • Jon Capricci
          • Jon Capricci
          • Jon Capricci
          • Jon Capricci
          • Jon Capricci

            the dailymail article has like 5 false accusations, women pull this shit all the time. I do not condone rape but there is definitely a bias towards women in these cases as the articles prove no matter what you say in an effort to distort the truth, now begin with the name calling and condescension . . .

          • Mandy Heath

            Yes. we all know the false accusation rate is 2-8%. Nobody has denied that. But you have still not proved your original statement which is what I have asked you to prove. Instead you have changed the direction of the conversation. So one more time. Please prove the following:

            All feminists characterize hetrosexual men as rapists

          • Jon Capricci
          • Jon Capricci

            k fine I’ll change it to most

          • Mandy Heath

            So your original statement was false? A gross generalization that wasn’t even true?
            So… can you prove Most? Some statistics would do.

          • Jon Capricci

            How could a stat exist for what all feminists think? It is more the radical, lesbian, ugly ones but they promote it in their doctrine, man hating that is characturizing all men in as bad as light as possible how can you argue that?

          • Mandy Heath

            How can I argue your false statement?
            Because I, unlike you, know that there are different types of feminism and what they stand for. And I know that the type of feminism you are talking about, which seeks to place women above men, is called radical feminism and it is a very small group which has been in decline since the 70′s. And I also do not generalize people into one group, which you have continually done, even in your last statement. “radical lesbian ugly ones”
            Sorry buddy. I’m straight, I work with men and have tons of male friends, and I am a feminist.
            You are wrong. That is all.

          • Jon Capricci

            I changed my first statement to most, and it’s correct you don’t speak for all feminists, no one has stats for what people think, it is their doctrine and nothing could be more radical than this website or article.

          • Mandy Heath

            There are plenty of stats for what people think. Polls are done all of the time.

            And you are right, I do not speak for all feminists.But I think we have proven here that neither do you. So grow up.

          • Jon Capricci

            Thanks for admitting I’m right and being a condescending liberal

          • Jon Capricci
          • JonathanNathan

            It’s really hard to not be condescending toward a person like you, Jon.

          • Mandy Heath

            Dude, I didn’t have to admit anything. I agreed to your statement “You do not speak for all feminists” Congrats for saying something extremely obvious.

            You still cannot prove that even most feminists feel the way you said.

          • Jon Capricci

            And you can’t prove they don’t so lets agree to disagree. FYI no one likes condescending liberals who can’t debate without name calling so that’s better it seems you have matured since your last post. How could you ever not consider the feminist movement radical. Whatever old boys club you think still exists you are more than happy to join when you achieve equal success, women don’t chose the same career paths as men as shown by their educational choices. Unproven generalizations as are made by the author are signs of a lack of intelligence as is the conceit to believe you’re on the “winning team” since a radical is in the white house.

          • Mandy Heath

            “And you can’t prove they don’t so lets agree to disagree.” Other than I have actually studied feminism and understand what it is and you have not. Including all of the different types. For example, I consider myself mostly a cultural feminist. Do you know what that means? Or do you need to google it?

            “FYI no one likes condescending liberals who can’t debate without name calling so that’s better it seems you have matured since your last post.”
            FYI I haven’t called you any names. However, no one likes a misogynist who hates women who stand up for themselves and others.

            “How could you ever not consider the feminist movement radical.”

            Because its not. How do you consider equality, and the ability for me to walk down the street at night without being afraid for my safety as radical?

            “women don’t chose the same career paths as men as shown by their educational choices.”

            And you don’t consider this statement in itself a generalization?

            Oh, and bringing in politics because you are loosing the argument? Really?

          • Jon Capricci

            I disagree with if you are not feminist you are misogynist another broad generalization I’m for equality FOR MEN I feel women have the upper hand in a lot of ways in society. Now you’re playing the “damsel in distress” card how about carrying A GUN when you walk alone down the street because the last time I checked rape was illegal. As far as educational choices go: “If today’s young women want to close the wage gap, they should change their college majors. Aspiring early childhood educators or social workers should reconsider: the median earnings in these fields are $36,000 and $39,000, respectively. …By contrast, petroleum engineering and metallurgy degrees promise far more money: median earnings are $120,000 and $80,000. Here is a list of the ten most remunerative majors compiled by the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Note that men overwhelmingly outnumber women in all but one major.

            Petroleum Engineering: 87% Male
            Pharmacy Pharmaceutical Sciences and Administration: 48% Male
            Mathematics and Computer Science: 67% Male
            Aerospace Engineering: 88% Male
            Chemical Engineering: 72% Male
            Electrical Engineering: 89% Male
            Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering: 97% Male
            Mechanical Engineering: 90% Male
            Metallurgical Engineering: 83% Male
            Mining and Mineral Engineering: 90% Male
            And here are the 10 least remunerative majors. This time it is women who prevail in nine out of ten majors.

            Counseling Psychology: 74% Female
            Early Childhood Education: 97% Female
            Theology and Religious Vocations: 34% Female
            Human Services and Community Organization: 81% Female
            Social Work: 88% Female
            Drama and Theater Arts: 60% Female
            Studio Arts: 66% Female
            Communication Disorders Sciences and Services: 94% Female
            Visual and Performing Arts: 77% Female
            Health and Medical Preparatory Programs: 55% Female
            There are far more women than men in college, and they earned more than 58% of college degrees this year. If large numbers of female students changed from the second group to the first, that would do far more to narrow the gap than, say, the Paycheck Fairness Act. That Act (still floundering in Congress) primarily targets the allegedly sexist practices of employers. But, as most economists will tell you, employers cannot be blamed for much or any of the gap. It is women’s choices that are the problem — beginning with their college majors.” Chistina Hoff Sommers

            and just for fun: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=521282277933371&set=a.416795408382059.94078.416793588382241&type=1&theater
            booyaa

          • Mandy Heath

            “I disagree with if you are not feminist you are misogynist”

            Good thing I didn’t say that then. I came to that conclusion based on your posts. Not because you disagree with feminism. (You don’t even know what feminism is) You sure do like putting words in people’s mouths. Must make you feel powerful.

            “Now you’re playing the damsel in distress card. How about carrying A GUN whn you walk alone down the street because the last time I checked rape was illegal.

            I have never once played the damsel in distress once in my life. I can take care of myself. And I DO carry a gun. The point is, I should not feel threatened in my daily life, and I should not be assaulted simply because I have a vagina. Not to mention that does that actually stop rape, it being illegal? No.

            And why are you bringing up wage and educational choices? We weren’t talking about that one bit. Trying to change the subject again? I never said one thing about the wage gap.
            However, here is a chart with men and women in the SAME career http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/04/09/1842001/the-10-jobs-with-the-biggest-gender-wage-gap/

            Oh, and I notice that on that picture you posted, all of the comments are from whiny men who probably just haven’t gotten any recently. (Probably because they treat women like sh-t)

            Keep your booya.

            Here is a question. Do you have a girlfriend? Does she know how you feel about women?

          • Jon Capricci

            Good you carry a gun, how do you feel threatened just shoot people or threaten them with it what are you worried about? And yes, I have a girlfriend and many female acquaintances. You said I was making generalizations about womens educational choices and I gave you a chart and you want to show a chart from a liberal website and accuse me of not getting laid. Hey, you know, have hairy armpits, wear Birkenstocks, call your girlfriends sir I DONT CARE. I don’t want to assault your vagina; there are just as many bad women as men its probably a good idea to keep distance from both obviously and I don’t need to know which feminist faction you’re from to know this is mostly about wanting more free shit like most liberals god I hate liberals . . .

          • Mandy Heath

            Well for one thing, you can’t just shoot people in bars or on buses. And when I was sexually assaulted, I was asleep. And woke up to him messing with me.

            I never said you wanted to assault my vagina. You keep putting words in my mouth.

            So you “Know all about feminism and what its about” and yet you prove yet again that you know absolutely nothing about feminism.

            How is wanting to not be catcalled, not be sexually assaulted on a bus, to be paid equal, have rights to my reproductive health choices, and to not get the “but you’re a girl” when I tell people I’m an electrician about getting free shit? Oh wait. its not. You’re changing the subject AGAIN.

            Oh. And if god existed, he would probably tell you not to hate.

          • Jon Capricci

            I don’t hate women and I’m not misogynist and/or trying to change the subject, nor did I know you were assaulted. Avoiding bad situations is a good idea for both genders obviously, but like I said there’s just as many bad women as men. The state pays you to reproduce and gives you free shit and it’s not enough, I hate unwanted attention from men etc. sounds like anti-men rhetoric to me. My point about educational choice that I backed up with facts is why women are paid less for those jobs, your liberal websites graph shows nothing about the education of those women who get less money. How does commission sales favour men or women, women rock at real estate and the pay isn’t correlated to some old boys club. I’m sorry about what happened to you but how did this guy get in your house? And how can you generalize all men are just like him?

          • JonathanNathan

            “Nothing could be more radical than this website or article”? You, little guy, really need to get out more.

          • Mandy Heath

            A link to a facebook post with 34 likes on it,

            A website that no one has ever heard of,

            A facebook photo of ONE case of a false accusation

            And an article about ONE student.

            Wonderful. Good for you. However, I asked for two simple things 1) A LEGITIMATE source. and 2) Proving your statement that ALL feminists think that all men are rapists. You did not do this. Try again?

  • billy

    too long didn’t read

    • JonathanNathan

      But you did comment. So you don’t have to time to read a few hundred words, but you do have time to leave a dumbass comment. Whatever.

  • Derek Hatfield

    This article is one of more ridiculous articles supporting feminism I have ever read. And there are a LOT of ridiculous articles about feminism. Nothing but generalizations, misinformation, selective observations and bad writing.

    Some of the more ridiculous quotes: “When abortion is restricted, people die” Just because the pregnant “lady” decided not to “control her body” two months previous, she should be able to “control her body” when she kills a foetus?

    Oh btw, when men are in charge, they do “good stuff” too…..But let’s just overlook that.

    This article is pure bunk written by an uneducated man. I will never support the feminist war on men. Any man who does is deluded.

    • JonathanNathan

      Yes, when men are in charge, good things can happen. Bad things can also happen, like nuclear warfare and 9/11 and the Republican Party. But I didn’t get into that because I wasn’t writing an article about how great it is that men are in charge of everything. I was writing an article about why women should have an equal slice of the pie.

      • Derek Hatfield

        Yes, there is not doubt from your obvious sexism that you will never write an article about how great it is the men are in charge of everything. Which is itself yet another indication of your inability to see reality. Men are NOT in charge of “everything”
        Furthermore, we still have no idea what women would be like when they are “equal”. There are not enough of them in positions of ultimate authority to make that judgement. Even you. We just rely on generalizations and stereoptypes about “nurturing” women that are hangovers from eh 60′s. Power corrupts. And when women are in power, let’s see how corrupt they become.

        • JonathanNathan

          What are we not in charge of?

          • Derek Hatfield

            Seriously? There are corporations run by women (Oprah Winfrey for example), government institutions (Hilary Clinton in the State Department), the education system, and all those other women in positions of power. And I suspect that that includes “Blue the Nation”….

          • JonathanNathan

            Oh wow, a handful of corporations run by women. Who’s on the board of directors?

            As for Blue The Nation, nope, we’re all guys here.

        • Glial

          Because corruption doesn’t happen to men in power as well? Ex: Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler

    • Katie

      Obviously it’s you who’s uneducated because your comments are completely
      ignorant and irrelevant. This is an article about men supporting women.
      If you want to read an article about ‘men being in charge’ look
      somewhere else and stop your whining.

      • Derek Hatfield

        No, this is an article explaining why men should be feminists. The author then says that any man is not a feminist is a mysogenist. My point is that you don’t have to be a feminist to help women, and that feminism is an inherently negative idealogy whose only goal is self-promotion to the exclusion of all others. Simple as that.

        • JonathanNathan

          And my point is that you don’t know what feminism is, and you clearly don’t like women very much, given that you refer to them all as liars who are trying to control men.

        • Sam

          It actually is talking about how there are inequalities in our society, of which women have the disadvantage, and by not acknowledging them, or by acknowledging them but not speaking up for them, you are essentially subscribing to these same modes of thought and allowing them to continue. Maybe you’re not doing those specific misogynist things, but by sitting back and saying, “those things happen and will always happen,” you’re part of a culture that allows them to continue and will keep things unequal between men and women. By not speaking up and saying that something is wrong, you are allowing inequality and therefore promoting misogyny.

    • Guest

      Obviously it’s you whose uneducated because your comments are completely ignorant and irrelevant. This is an article about men supporting women. If you want to read an article about ‘men being in charge’ look somewhere else and stop whining already.

    • Katie

      Obviously it’s you who’s uneducated because your comments are completely ignorant and irrelevant. This is an article about men supporting women. If you want to read an article about ‘men being in charge’ look somewhere else and stop your whining.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Christine-Moore/590370150 Christine Moore

      Holy crap, how long did this idiot lurk on here? All the way down it’s this pig commenting about how much he hates women and how rape isn’t rape… WTF..

    • Mandy Heath

      “Some of the more ridiculous quotes: “When abortion is restricted, people die” Just because the pregnant “lady” decided not to “control her body” two months previous, she should be able to “control her body” when she kills a foetus?”

      So its always a woman’s fault that she got pregnant? A fetus never threatens the life of a woman? Married women with families don’t have unintended pregnancies?

  • Derek Hatfield

    “Gentlemen, you’re already soldiers in the war on women. It’s time to switch sides”. Really? Are we all rapists, too?
    Jonathan, it sounds more like you’re a willing patsy in the war on men. Just sayin’

    • JonathanNathan

      No, I didn’t say all men were rapists. And you know I didn’t say that. But just as you’re either racist or not racist, you’re either misogynist or feminist.

      • Derek Hatfield

        That is the most ignorant generalization that I have ever heard. Sorry to shatter your little feminist dream, but feminism is a virus that seeks to promote women over men, and women’s needs over men’s needs and has engaged in a war against men in order to dominate using the language of “equality”. And I think the most naive among them really believe that’s their intention. However, whenever women’s needs come up against men’s needs, the women’s need are given preference. Every single time. That’s ONE moral argument against feminism that you of course won’t consider. Because like a typical feminist, you through mud at anyone who disagrees with you or calls bullshit to your “statistics” and “studies”. If anyone disagrees with you, just call them a mysogynist and slither back to your white ivory tower. Pathetic.
        Your article reads like it was written by a high school student.

        • JonathanNathan

          “feminism is a virus that seeks to promote women over men, and women’s needs over men’s needs”–That’s a weird position to take given that I’ve never once met a feminist who believed in such things.

          “However, whenever women’s needs come up against men’s needs, the women’s need are given preference.”–The fact that you come at this from a perspective of their being some kind of inherent conflict between men and women is why you’re so full of hatred. Women’s needs and men’s needs do not need to come into conflict. The needs of one individual woman might come into conflict with the needs of one individual man, and in that situation, I would expect the situation to be resolved in accordance with the specific realities of that situation. I would not want it resolved based on gender. Neither would anybody I know.

          “you through mud”–THROW mud, I think you meant.

          “calls bullshit to your “statistics” and “studies”.”–Yeah, I have a real hard time taking you seriously when you avowedly don’t believe in science and mathematics. I admit it.

          “Your article reads like it was written by a high school student.”–But a high school student who can spell correctly! Score one for the high school students!

          • Derek Hatfield

            Ah, feminists will never say they are seeking to overpower men. That would be counterproductive and would create too much criticism for them. “the jig would be up” as they say…However, domination is what they are seeking, in every idea they promote and every action they take.
            And again, everytime a man stands up against feminist bunk he is accused of being hateful and full of hatred. Yet when women bitch about men, they are being “noble” or seeking “justice”. Typical double-standard. I believe in equality between the sexes, which is why I will fight always fight against feminism. For the increasing numbers of men who are becoming victims to this idealogy and for our sons and their sons.
            “through mud” – I guess in high school you guys still thinks jokes about spelling are important enough to bring during a social debate. We’re not getting marks here, son. You need to be able to make intelligent arguments and not reproduce a dictionnary. And one spelling mistake is pretty much to your many mistakes in punctuation.

          • Rex

            If you can’t even bother to check your spelling, why should anyone assume that you’ve paid as much attention to constructing your arguments (not that there’s anything concrete there either)?
            It’s disgusting to see the number of people over 20 interchanging your and you’re, ‘could of’ instead of could have, and so on. You’ve got access to the internet but you’re functionally illiterate (or don’t care about giving off that impression) if you fuck up something so basic that’s taught in primary school.
            And yeah, go ahead and defend yourself by calling me a grammar Nazi.

          • Derek Hatfield

            No, not a Nazi. Just an idiot. What does spelling have to with the quality of one’s argument. And before you start criticizing my spelling, please check your punctuation. And also go look up the term “functionally illiterate”. You don’t want to use words that you obviously don’t understand. Lord…

          • piacere68

            Bro, you are strawfem-ing it hard. Run along back to reddit.

        • Glial

          You are clearly delusional. The feminist aim is EQUALIZE the playing field for men and women. It is in no means a way for women to “take over the world.” I don’t understand why you’re filled with such hate, it seems to me that you’re all for oppressing women and you’re just hiding behind the facade that “men need more representation”. Men are OVER-represented as it is, your “I believe in equality between the sexes, which is why I will fight always fight against feminism” doesn’t equalize anything, in fact, it tips the scale towards misogyny. Give me an example of women’s needs being preferential to men’s needs. In addition, without “statistics” and “studies” to your own argument, you just come off as an over-opinionated, oppressive, misguided moron. Where’s the proof to your argument? In addition, flinging around petty insults such as ‘you write like a high school student’, makes your argument even more pathetic. If you could give counter arguments and support them with facts, statistics, and studies, more people would be apt to listen to you. Instead, the way you frame your argument just comes off as an unintelligible, delusional rant.

      • ChicagoJohn

        “…you’re either misogynist or feminist.”

        Dumbest. Statement. Ever.
        Right next to you implying that you cut down on rape by being a feminist.

        • JonathanNathan

          Well would you care to explain your opposition to either statement, or would you prefer to just sit there being Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons.

          • sleepytime

            “But just as you’re either racist or not racist, you’re either misogynist or feminist.”

            Would the appropriate statement here be “feminist or not feminist, and not feminist != misogynist”? There are no shades of gray here? You are either 100% for your particular view of a multi-faceted philosophy composed of various cultural divisions (as evidenced by comments on here made by self-proclaimed feminists) or you have 100% hatred for women?

            Maybe try not to speak in absolutes/extremes so much and you’ll find it easier to spread your message.

          • JonathanNathan

            Feminism is the belief that women should have equal rights and opportunities in society, and should not have to live in fear of being raped and assaulted. If you do not agree with those tenets, then you are a misogynist.

      • guest

        So by your thinking, a person is either homosexual or if not he is homophobic?. Ridiculous argument.

        • JonathanNathan

          Nope, that doesn’t follow at all. I don’t think you really know what feminism is.

  • Alex

    With regard to your writing style, I would say that you attempt to cover too much ground without citing evidence. In your last paragraph alone, you make five major claims and only cite evidence for one of them. If these claims were part of a syllogism, this could be justifiable. Yet they are all different.

    (In response to the claim that women don’t earn as much for the same work)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow

    Although it could be argued that the choices women make in the labor market on average is the result of discrimination, the point of this video illustrates that there is nothing holding back an individual woman from earning as much as men.

    Furthermore, I refuse to view myself as an oppressor- it is a self loathing mentality. I am not individually responsible for the acts of my gender just as every black person isn’t responsible for the horrible acts of black gangs. Beyond that, I will not feel guilty for trying to pick up a girl in the bar “without trying to get to know her”. How many women who go to the bar are looking for a serious relationship? From what Ive seen, the majority of women in that scene are looking for the exact same thing as men: a quick hook up. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think that it is very naive to pretend that women are somehow above the baser elements of sex. Every sexual encounter is not a man “using” a woman.

    Perhaps I am also completely off base here, but it seems to me that when a woman dresses very provocatively, she wants to be viewed in a sexual way. I am not saying that this gives a guy permission to rape her. But at a minimum, you can’t fault a guy for getting the impression she’s trying to attract a guy. Can you fault him for trying to pick her up?

    Context for any situation regarding sex is very important. Unfortunately, there are also no clear guidelines on what is and what isn’t acceptable because it is not a clearly defined thing. If a good looking guy approaches a woman with an overture, he will generally be received positively. If a ugly guy were to do so in exactly the same way, he’d be called a creep. How is the guy supposed to know if he’ll meet her standard of looks? Is he supposed to simply not try?

    Also, on a different matter, I would refrain from framing abortion as merely a women’s rights issue. It seems intellectually disingenuous when you consider that the primary argument against abortion is not “women shouldn’t have the right to choose” but rather that it is immoral to take the life of a fetus. While I happen to agree with you that abortion should be legal, it will always be an ethical gray area for a variety of reasons. After all, why is the mother the only one who gets to make the decision? Why does the father get no say in the matter? It may be her body, but its not only her kid.

    Also, in the future, I would try to avoid making serious points using image macros. The image rarely contributes anything to the point that your trying to make.

    As a final aside, for as much criticism as you have provided, I would like to say that I do believe in gender equality within the context of society. However, unlike the issue of racism, it is far more complicated. Racism is entirely a social construct (considering that it didn’t even exist 1000 years) while gender is also a biological construct. To what extent gender is a social construct and a biological construct is an issue that is extremely complicated.

    • JonathanNathan

      “the point of this video illustrates that there is nothing holding back an individual woman from earning as much as men.”–Other than, you know, the facts on the ground, which are that women earn less money for the same work.

      “Furthermore, I refuse to view myself as an oppressor- it is a self loathing mentality. I am not individually responsible for the acts of my gender”–Of course not. You’re responsible for your own acts.

      “How many women who go to the bar are looking for a serious relationship?”–I didn’t say that. I do think, however, that they’d appreciate being treated like a human being and not a piece of meat with holes.

      “Perhaps I am also completely off base here, but it seems to me that when a woman dresses very provocatively, she wants to be viewed in a sexual way.”–Maybe you should talk to some actual women about that. You’ll be surprised.

      “How is the guy supposed to know if he’ll meet her standard of looks? Is he supposed to simply not try?”–We all have to play to our strengths. Most of the time, if a guy–regardless of how he looks–just walks up and propositions a woman, he’s not going to be received well. I personally don’t go about it that way. I just try to be a human being with a personality. It works pretty well for me.

      “Also, in the future, I would try to avoid making serious points using image macros. The image rarely contributes anything to the point that your trying to make.”–Yes, they were intended to be lighthearted diversions from the heavier material. Apparently that was lost on you.

      “Racism is entirely a social construct (considering that it didn’t even exist 1000 years) while gender is also a biological construct.”–No. Sex is biological. Gender is not.

      • Derek Hatfield

        “when a woman dresses provocatively, she wants to be viewed in a sexual way – Maybe you should talk to some actual women about that. You’ll be surprised.” Ok, could you enlighten us?…..
        “I personally don’t go about it that way. I just try to be a human being with a personality.” Oh, and what is the purpose of doing that, Jonathan? You’re trying to “win her over”, right?….lol If you look up the word “seduction” in the dictionnary, you may learn something. But no, maybe you’re just “horrifying”. lol

        • JonathanNathan

          “Ok, could you enlighten us?”–Since you apparently don’t plan to talk to any women about it, sure. Maybe a woman wears a short skirt because it’s hot out. Maybe she wears what you consider “provocative” clothing because she just likes the way it looks on her. One of the most frequent misconceptions about women’s clothing choices is that they dress the way they dress for men. By and large, they don’t. They’re much more likely to dress for each other and for themselves.

          “Oh, and what is the purpose of doing that, Jonathan?”–It certainly isn’t “seduction.” The purpose is to talk to a human being that I may or may not be attracted to sexually or romantically, who may or may not be attracted to me sexually or romantically, and make a friend, enjoy a hookup, or maybe even start a relationship. But “seduction”? Nah man. Leave it in the pornos and the bodice-rippers.

          • Alex

            “They’re much more likely to dress for each other and for themselves.”

            Whenever I’ve heard this, I’ve always thought women said that so as to not sound like a “slut”. If a woman is intentionally dressing provocatively to attract men, that might give the impression that she is “easy”. I’ve personally never been into slut shaming, but a lot of people are. Therefore, when asked why they dress the way they do, women say something along the lines that “it makes them feel good” or “I like looking good”. But as I addressed in my comment above, why does looking that way make them feel good? Its not a stretch to say that its to look good for guys.

            “Maybe a woman wears a short skirt because it’s hot out”. This gave me a good laugh. Yeah that’s the reason women wear mini-skirts… because its hot out. I’ve seen women wearing mini skirts all year round.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Whenever I’ve heard this, I’ve always thought women said that so as to not sound like a “slut”.”–Of course. Because to you, a woman defines herself and her behaviors based on what she thinks your perception of her will be. It couldn’t possibly that she’s being, you know, honest?

            “I’ve personally never been into slut shaming, but a lot of people are.”–I’m sure.

            “Its not a stretch to say that its to look good for guys.”–When the only reason you’re saying it is that you think that’s why they do it, and not a single woman has ever confirmed it to you, then yeah, it’s a stretch. You’re just trying to bolster your narrative that women are defined by their relationship to the male gender.

            “Yeah that’s the reason women wear mini-skirts… because its hot out.”–On a dare, I once wore a skirt on a hot summer day. It was awesome. A skirt is the perfect garment for that kind of weather. If it was socially acceptable, I would wear one on every single hot day of my life. But don’t mind me, I’m just a dude who opens his mind to what a woman might actually be thinking, rather than just deciding I already know what she’s thinking.

          • Mandy Heath

            It really amazes me how guys like this who are like “All women do this, all women think that” Then ironically they bitch about not having good relationships. Gee I wonder why. Maybe its because they view all women as exactly the same?

          • Alex

            These comments have all been full of generalizations. Jonathan has classified all men who hit on a woman without getting to know her as “participants in a culture of oppression”.

            Furthermore, I have never once complained about “not having good relationships”. I have had plenty of good relationships and plenty of bad ones. At this point I am single due to the fact my work requires me to travel around a lot.

          • Mandy Heath

            Really its a fine fine line. Between the guy at the bar who wants to chat, the guy who is hitting on me a bit, and the guy who is demanding that I go home with him and calls me a bitch if I do not.

          • JonathanNathan

            “At this point I am single”–And thank the good Lord for that.

          • JonathanNathan

            The reason they want to feel that way is that they were brought up to think that all women are the same, that there are certain specific things you do that will attract whatever woman you want, so then when those things don’t work, they blame feminists for ruining everything and insist that all REAL women–not the angry, man-hating lesbian feminist cabal–like chocolate, flowers, and diamonds.

          • Mandy Heath

            It really is ridiculous how much it is perpetuated in our society, even through commercials.
            “Every gift begins with Kay” “He went to Jared!”
            Dude… don’t go to Jared. Get us a kayak or something that is actually worth buying.

          • Alex

            “Of course. Because to you, a woman defines herself and her behaviors based on what she thinks your perception of her will be”. Of course not. You seem to intentionally misconstrue everything I say. She doesn’t define
            herself and her behaviors based on what I think, but she certainly changes the way she presents herself depending on the company she’s with. In a very similar way, I act differently with the various groups of people I hang out with.

            While acknowledge the opinion she’s being honest, I have to ask… WHY do you think it makes them feel good to dress that way? My idea is that it is because they like the idea of knowing them men find them attractive. After all, you rarely see older women in long term relationships dress
            that way. (I’ve never seen my mom or any of her friends dress in short shorts or a low cut top.)
            “You’re just trying to bolster your narrative that women are defined by their relationship to the male gender.” Ive also repeatedly said that men act the way they do to attract women.How does that fit into my narrative?
            Sex is something that affects the behaviors and actions of both genders because it is an EXTREMELY powerful motivator.

            Furthermore, as I said before, I’m not into slut shaming. I couldn’t give a shit who a woman sleeps with. It’s not my business. But, because you’ve already labelled me as a misogynist in your mind, you think you already know everything about me.

            “Im sure”. A statement like that is so unbelievably condescending. Do you dismiss everybody who doesn’t agree with every point of your philosophy as a bigot?

            I’ve seen women wearing short skirts on cold days. It’s perpetually cold in England and they are a fad amongst young women. Back in high school, my friends and I always used to joke that the toughest people on campus were the girls in short shorts on a 30 degree day.

            “But don’t mind me, I’m just a dude who opens his mind to what a woman
            might actually be thinking, rather than just deciding I already know
            what she’s thinking.”

            Of course sir. You know what every woman is thinking. Women don’t care about being attractive for men. Women don’t like it when a good looking guy tries to talk to them. Nope. Only men are the degenerate pigs with sex on the mind all the time.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Of course not. You seem to intentionally misconstrue everything I say.”–You know, at a certain point, when everything you see suggests a certain mode of thinking, it can’t really be called misconstruing anymore.

            “WHY do you think it makes them feel good to dress that way?”–Why does it make me feel good to take a hot shower, or to read a good book, or to eat a nice steak dinner? Because it fucking does, man. Not everything’s a big mystery. But of course you know that. This is just another way for you to keep justifying the way you think about and behave toward women, rather than just doing the decent thing and treating them with dignity and respect.

            “After all, you rarely see older women in long term relationships dress that way.”–Dude, you’re wrong. Maybe you live in Elkfart, Alabama, but here in the cities, where people actually have a good time, plenty of older women, women in long term relationships, and even older women in long term relationships, dress in a way I’m sure you would disgustingly call “provocative” or something demeaning like that.

            “Ive also repeatedly said that men act the way they do to attract women.How does that fit into my narrative?”–Oh, don’t worry. It’s just as creepy as everything else you’re saying.

            “Sex is something that affects the behaviors and actions of both genders because it is an EXTREMELY powerful motivator.”–Sure, it’s great fun. Not something to dehumanize someone over though.

            “Furthermore, as I said before, I’m not into slut shaming.”–The lady doth protest a bit too much.

            “But, because you’ve already labelled me as a misogynist in your mind, you think you already know everything about me.”–Not everything. But I do know you’re unwilling to be a feminist. And that you’re creepy.

            “A statement like that is so unbelievably condescending.”–It was meant to be.

            “Do you dismiss everybody who doesn’t agree with every point of your philosophy as a bigot?”–Only if they’re a bigot.

            “I’ve seen women wearing short skirts on cold days. It’s perpetually cold in England and they are a fad amongst young women.”–OK, so they’re a fad. That’s why they’re wearing them then. See, that wasn’t so hard.

            “Of course sir. You know what every woman is thinking.”–Not actually what I said, but don’t let that stop you.

          • Aimee

            Mini skirts are a fashion statement propagated by women’s magazines. A woman looks at the fashion trends and thinks “if I want to win the approval of my fellow ladies and be accepted as one of those in the fashion-forward crowd, I need to make myself uncomfortable by wearing short skirts in cold weather and shoes that kill my feet.” Honestly, that is what it is. If you dress frumpy, OTHER WOMEN will look down on you like, shame on you, don’t you care at all what you look like? …this would be one of the major reasons why I prefer to make friends with guys who appreciate that I am sensible and dress comfortably rather than try to seek approval of a bunch of crazy ladies (no offense to those who are like me or are not superficially judgmental like this, but in my experience a lot of them are.) I really wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the “sexy” fashion trends were originally designed by men, to be frank, but women think that they just HAVE to have them, same as they think the MUST HAVE the purses made by coach and gucci even though the symbols all over them make them hideous in my opinion. It’s to impress the other females that they buy these items, certainly not to impress men, and the mini skirts and other ridiculous fads are the same case most of the time. Count me out, but that is the truth straight up.

        • Mandy Heath

          “when a woman dresses provocatively, she wants to be viewed in a sexual way – Maybe you should talk to some actual women about that. You’ll be surprised.” Ok, could you enlighten us?…..

          I’ll take this one. I dress nice for myself. I am a carpenter and electrician and sometimes I just want to put on something nice for myself. It is not my responsibility to dress in a way that will not attract attention from men. Because frankly, I could wear a burlap sack and probably still get unwanted attention. And If I am going dancing at the local bar, I know its going to be hot in there. Its a small bar. So I wear a tank top or a dress. That’s not an invitation.

          • Alex

            “It is not my responsibility to dress in a way that will not attract attention from men.”
            As a guy, it is my responsibility to dress in a manner for how I want to be perceived. Back in high school, I used to look like a punk rocker type. I wore a mohawk and lots of black clothes.

            Not so coincidentally, I often far more attention from cops than my buddies. “What are you doing out here this evening?” was a question I got asked a lot when I was driving around at night.

            Was that fair? Of course it wasn’t. But it doesn’t change the reality that people will make assumptions about you based on how you dress. And they will treat you differently based off of those assumptions.

            If you walk into a bar wearing a short skirt and low cut top, it sends a message. No matter how attractive you are, I doubt you would receive as much attention dressed in a “burlap sack”.

            “So I wear a tank top or a dress. That’s not an invitation. ”

            This is where you at least have to admit things are confusing for men. Since women are usually the one who are approached its something they’ve never had to think about. Obviously it is inappropriate to hit on somebody in the workplace or at a formal setting. But if dancing in revealing clothes in a bar isn’t at least a way of saying that its ok to hit on you, when is it ever possible?

            Am I a misogynist just for hitting on women? Well, many women would disagree with that.

          • Mandy Heath

            No, and I didn’t say you were. And if I am approached by a man and don’t really want his attention I tell him so kindly. It is only if it continues that I don’t like. Its about respect really. And while I have no problem with men coming up and talking to me, I’m really friendly, if they come up and grab my ass, thats another story.
            So no, you are not a misogynist for hitting on women. You are a misogynist if you continue when they say no, or for up and grabbing them or something.

          • Alex

            I never said I approved of continuing when a woman says no, or touching her inappropriately. I’ve approached many women asking them out for coffee, or simply out to dinner. I’ve gotten my fair share of “no’s” and after that, the situation was over.

            Also, I wasn’t saying you were accusing me of being a misogynist; I was mostly replying to Jonathan. He seems to believe that every time you ask a woman out without getting to know her, you are participating in the culture of oppression. Every time you say she’s beautiful without her expressly inviting your opinion, you are participating in a culture of oppression.

            I’ve always believed that as long as you respect the woman’s boundaries (don’t continue when its clearly not being well received or desired) that such actions were ok.

          • Kay

            I don’t think anyone is saying it’s wrong to hit on someone in a social setting. But if you just came up to me in a bar and asked me on a date, I (and most women I know) would say no. Frankly, I’d think that, obviously, you just like the way I look and – this is the key – have made no effort to get to know any more. Not only do you now seem superficial, but also kind of entitled and gross. Same with people asking to dance – it takes you out of a comfortable space and into an unknown space with an unknown person. I think Jonathan’s point is that women generally don’t feel comfortable in public spaces because they aren’t accepted as equals, so perhaps someone hitting on them should could keep that in mind (i.e. be aware of their privilege).

            This is the same idea with commenting on a woman’s looks. It may be complimentary, but she isn’t a painting in a gallery. When you compliment an object she is wearing or her makeup, you compliment a DECISION. But when it’s a physical attribute that she has little control over, it’s uncomfortable because here you are, a stranger, feeling somehow entitled to judge her openly. It’s the attitude that women in public spaces are public property, and others have the right to make comments, harass, touch, etc. (Some women might not appreciate this even when applied to their clothing or something, because it’s still thinking you can openly judge their appearance, which, when you deal with it from literally toddler age, gets real old real fast. Respect that and move on.) Obviously this doesn’t necessarily apply to women you actually know.

            Maybe you should check out Everyday Sexism; it might help you understand why seemingly insignificant things (microaggressions) are such a “big deal” when you see how they compound over time.

          • Kay

            Also, just to clarify, I left a lot of this gender-neutral, because the last time I was made uncomfortable at a club was by a woman hitting on me. “Patriarchy” does not mean “men”.

          • JonathanNathan

            “This is where you at least have to admit things are confusing for men.”–Actually, it’s really simple. If a woman shows interest in you, she’s interested in you. If she doesn’t, she’s not. See how that works?

          • JonathanNathan

            Pssst…Alex thinks the only reason you’re saying that is because you’re afraid he’ll think you’re a slut.

      • Alex

        “Other than, you know, the facts on the ground, which are that women earn less money for the same work.” Did you even watch the video? It gives a great explanation behind the myth that a woman earns less for the same work. Here’s a quote from the video description that summarizes his point.

        “Looking at the data, women on average earn an annual wage that is approximately 75% that of men, which many people believe is the result of discrimination. However, when Prof. Steve Horwitz analyzes the data more closely, he finds that women make certain choices, such as career selection and raising children, which tend to result in lower wages than men. These choices could be the result of personal preferences or sexist cultural expectations for women’s work, though the relative influence of these two factors remains unclear.”

        That is the issue. If you have contradictory evidence, please provide it.

        “I didn’t say that. I do think, however, that they’d appreciate being
        treated like a human being and not a piece of meat with holes.”

        You didn’t say that; you merely implied it when you said that that you are an “oppressor” if you try to pick up a woman at a bar without trying to get to know her first.

        “Maybe you should talk to some actual women about that. You’ll be surprised.” Interestingly enough, I have talked to “actual women” about that. Often times, they will say that they like to dress that way because it makes them “feel good about themselves”. Yet, why does it make them feel good about themselves to dress that way? I don’t think that I’m stretching when I say that it is because they want to be attractive for the opposite gender.

        “We all have to play to our strengths. Most of the time, if a
        guy–regardless of how he looks–just walks up and propositions a woman, he’s not going to be received well. I personally don’t go about it that way. I just try to be a human being with a personality. It works pretty well for me.” Well of course. Rarely does any guy simply walk up to a girl in public and try to get laid (with the exception being a club or bar). He may ask for her number or ask her out on a date. Looks/status/hygiene/charm will be the deciding factors in whether he gets a “yes” or a “no”. Furthermore, everyone tries to be a human being with a personality. What does that even mean? Are you implying that some guys try to act unlike a human being, or without a personality?

        “Yes, they were intended to be lighthearted diversions from the heavier material. Apparently that was lost on you.” It was not exactly “lost on me”. However, I found it strange that you choose image macros with a guy (Ryan Gosling) that women find very attractive in seductive photos. If I were to post image macros with half naked women, I can guarantee one of your first arguments would be about how I’ve made those women into sexual objects.

        “No. Sex is biological. Gender is not.” This statement was confusing to me for a variety of reasons. Sex may be a biological act, but there are many traditions/cultural norms (societal constructs) that define it. For example, many societies still frown upon sex in public. While the act is clearly biological, it has implications on a societal level. Furthermore, to make such a strong claim, that “gender is not”, without providing any evidence is ridiculous. To what extent gender is a societal construct is an extremely complex issue for a variety of reasons.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender_difference

        This article demonstrates that even intellectuals have a wide range of views on this subject. There are a variety of different viewpoints and there is no scientifically established answer. Therefore, you can not simply say “gender is not” because the issue is not as clear cut as that.

        • JonathanNathan

          1) On the pay gap: So women just choose to work shittier jobs? I’m not going to link you to 50 different articles, but Wikipedia’s a good starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States

          2) “You didn’t say that; you merely implied it when you said that that you are an “oppressor” if you try to pick up a woman at a bar without trying to get to know her first.”–Actually, I said you contribute to a culture of oppression.

          3) “Often times, they will say that they like to dress that way because it makes them “feel good about themselves”. Yet, why does it make them feel good about themselves to dress that way?”–I don’t know, maybe you should ask them.

          4) “I don’t think that I’m stretching when I say that it is because they want to be attractive for the opposite gender.”–On the other hand, jumping to your own conclusions is probably easier than asking them. Not for nothing, but if you ever do ask them, don’t be shocked if they tell you they just like to look good, or that they dress more for other women than for men.

          5) “Well of course. Rarely does any guy simply walk up to a girl in public and try to get laid”–I’m sure most of the women I know would love to move to this wonderful planet you live on, where women don’t get hit on constantly.

          6) “He may ask for her number or ask her out on a date.”–Do you not realize what this says? “Hi there. I know absolutely nothing about you. I don’t know what your voice sounds like. I don’t know what you think about the economy, popular music, cinema, the war, sports, or anything else. What I do know is that you make my penis happy. Will you go out on a date with me?” Yeah, that’s gonna make a girl feel humanized.

          7) “If I were to post image macros with half naked women, I can guarantee one of your first arguments would be about how I’ve made those women into sexual objects.”–Actually, it depends on the photos. If they’re all done up into contorted, sexualized positions that rob them of agency and cast them as sexual objects, then yes, I’d say that. If, on the other hand, they were done tastefully, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. As a heterosexual male, I have a great deal of fondness for the female body. I think it’s just great.

          8) “This statement was confusing to me for a variety of reasons.”–I was talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex. Which is different from this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender.

          • Alex

            1. It’s not that they choose to work “shittier” jobs, its that they choose to work jobs that on average pay less. Is being a teacher inherently worse than being an electrical engineer? To answer that question, you really need to say what you want out of life.

            That’s why it says the following line in the article. “The statistic does not take into account differences in experience, skill, occupation, education or hours worked, as long as it qualifies as full-time work.”

            Its also why there is this line. “The conclusion was based largely on a study by Eric Solberg & Teresa
            Laughlin (1995), who find that “occupational selection is the primary determinant of the gender wage gap” (as opposed to discrimination)”

            Basically, those two quotes summarize the main idea of the video I linked to you which, at this point, I have to assume you never watched.

            2. “Actually, I said you contribute to a culture of oppression.” Are we playing with semantics here? Somebody who contributes to a culture of oppression is an oppressor.

            3+4) I have talked to many women about this. It appears as if I’ve gotten similar answers to you; “It makes me feel good when I look good”. Why do YOU think dressing that way makes them feel good? Do you honestly believe how people dressed is not at all influenced by attracting somebody else? About 90% of the guys I know dress well exclusively for women. I mean, how often do you see married women dressing in a highly sexualized manner? The type of women who dress this way are usually relatively young (under 30) and not in long term relationships. At this point, it appears as if we have reached an impasse.

            5) Ive always found this to be an interesting issue. I’ve known gorgeous women who complain about being hit on endlessly. I’ve known less attractive women who complain that guys never notice them. It’s a “grass is greener” mechanic where its nearly impossible to find the perfect balance. Obviously nobody should be subjected to repeated sexual harassment or sexual assault. (Unapproved contact should be off limits, and you shouldn’t have to be subjected to being hit on every day after you’ve made your intentions clear). Yet that is exactly why there are laws regarding this sort of behavior in the workplace. As for this happening in public, this is where women need to take some responsibility for the signal they send. Whether they like it or not, dressing in shorts shorts and a short top sends a message to guys that you want sexual attention. (Again, I am not condoning rape in any sense. I keep saying this because the moment I let up on it, I know that will be your counterattack). However, if you want to avoid this type of attention, dressing more conservatively will do the trick. This doesn’t mean she has to cover every square inch of her body. The way you dress sends a signal to the world about how you want to be perceived whether you like it or not. Is it superficial? Certainly, but its a reality that women should acknowledge.

            6) I don’t know how often you have asked women out on dates, but a date is not a way of saying “hey… lets fuck”. A date is also about getting to know the person. A relationship with a woman does not need to start with a deep friendship.

            7) Tastefully? Well, who gets to decide that? By Islamic standards, any photo revealing any significant amount of the female body is not “tasteful”. By the standards of ancient Crete, a woman with exposed breasts was “tasteful”. How is the image “hey girl… yes means yes” tasteful?

            8) Did you stop reading after the first sentence of that paragraph?

          • JonathanNathan

            “Why do YOU think dressing that way makes them feel good?”–Same reason I feel good when I feel like I’m dressed well. It looks good. I’m under no illusions that being well-dressed will suddenly have ladies lining up to fuck me. I know, however, that looking good means you’re going to have a better time in general. A person likes to look good.

            “About 90% of the guys I know dress well exclusively for women.”–How sad.

            “I mean, how often do you see married women dressing in a highly sexualized manner?”–All the time.

            “The type of women who dress this way are usually relatively young (under 30) and not in long term relationships.”–Maybe if you live in Peoria, but here in San Francisco, women are actually allowed to dress however they want, regardless of their relationship status.

            “I’ve known less attractive women who complain that guys never notice them.”–Yeah, being creeped on and being noticed by a decent guy who’s interested in a relationship are not really the same thing. Do you really not understand this?

            “As for this happening in public, this is where women need to take some responsibility for the signal they send.”–Right. I mean, she wouldn’t dress like that if she didn’t want it, right?

            “Whether they like it or not, dressing in shorts shorts and a short top sends a message to guys that you want sexual attention.”–No it doesn’t. That’s a creepy viewpoint.

            “Again, I am not condoning rape in any sense.”–Yes you are.

            “I keep saying this because the moment I let up on it, I know that will be your counterattack”–Say it all you want. You’re still subscribing to the exact same kind of thinking that rape apologists use.

            “However, if you want to avoid this type of attention, dressing more conservatively will do the trick.”–So if I tell a woman in a short skirt that she has nice legs and a great ass, it’s HER fault I did that? What is wrong with you?

            “This doesn’t mean she has to cover every square inch of her body.”–That’s exactly what it means.

            “I don’t know how often you have asked women out on dates, but a date is not a way of saying “hey… lets fuck”. A date is also about getting to know the person.”–But the fact that you’re asking a woman out on a date with no reason to do so other than that you like the way she looks, that makes it clear what you’re after and why you’re after it.

            “Tastefully? Well, who gets to decide that?”–I’m pretty sure I made myself quite clear on the subject.

            “How is the image “hey girl… yes means yes” tasteful?”–Probably because he’s not bending over, showing his ass to the camera, putting his fingers in his mouth.

            “Did you stop reading after the first sentence of that paragraph?”–No.

          • Alex

            “About 90% of the guys I know dress well exclusively for women.”–How sad.

            How is that “sad”? Because you have the notion that the way you dress should only be for yourself? Take your righteousness somewhere else.

            It’s like you intentionally misconstrue my points at every turn. The way you dress WILL affect how others perceive you. I never said it was fair; I never said it was how things SHOULD be. And this does not mean I approve of rape. But you have to acknowledge the reality of your situation and act accordingly.

            There is a big difference between this

            http://washingtonprogram.ucdavis.edu/images/business-casual%20Women.jpg

            and something like this

            http://img.humorsharing.com/media/images/1208/i_hot_girls_in_hot_short_shorts_019_501a8a902b6b8.jpg

            It’s creepy that I think those outfits clearly send different signals? The first one has a professional, yet casual look that is feminine yet also not sexual. The second one makes me think of a party girl. Making judgements based off of other peoples’ appearances is done by everyone.

            I used to get picked up a lot by cops when I was dressing like a punk rocker for driving in a “suspicious manner” (especially down in Tiburon and Sea Cliff). That’s why I’ve ditched the mohawk and Bad Religion shirts.

            If its not obvious already, I grew up in the San Francisco bay area. I currently live in Greece, but I am well aware of what goes on there. I used to go to concerts down in Berkeley (924 Gilman) and eat at Tommy’s down on Geary Street between 23rd and 24th. I played high school matches at Crocker Amazon, and hung out with good friends at the Marin highlands.

            “but here in San Francisco, women are actually allowed to dress however they want, regardless of their relationship status.”

            I never said women couldn’t dress however they want. I said that how they dress will affect how others perceive them.

            “But the fact that you’re asking a woman out on a date with no reason to do so other than that you like the way she looks, that makes it clear what you’re after and why you’re after it.”

            Do you honestly think looks shouldn’t be a factor in who people want to date? If not for sex and passion, a “relationship” isn’t anything more than a friendship. I’ve got good friends, but what separates them from “girlfriends” is a physical aspect. This doesn’t mean that I can’t also get to know my girlfriend on a more personal level; it simply acknowledges the reality that the physical factor will be important.

          • JonathanNathan

            “How is that “sad”?”–Because a person should be able to do things for reasons other than trying to have sex with a woman.

            “Take your righteousness somewhere else.”–Really? Take my righteousness somewhere other than MY WEBSITE?

            “And this does not mean I approve of rape.”–It kinda does, actually. When you blame the victim (or tell her to “take responsibility” for what happens to her), yeah, you’re basically letting the perpetrator off the hook.

            “If its not obvious already, I grew up in the San Francisco bay area.”–Apparently it didn’t take.

            “Do you honestly think looks shouldn’t be a factor in who people want to date?”–Looks should not be such a central factor that they’re literally the only reason you ask someone, which is what you’re arguing in favor of.

          • Alex

            “Because a person should be able to do things for reasons other than trying to have sex with a woman.”

            They dress well to impress women because they want to- it’s their choice.

            I didn’t blame the victim. There are boundaries that can’t be crossed under any circumstances. Obviously, you can not continually hit on somebody after they have expressed disinterest (sexual harassment), and you can not assault them (assault, rape). Those are crimes and rightly so. All I said was that the way you dress will bring on a certain type of attention whether you like it or not. I’m not a rape apologist. Stop extrapolating on the “significance” of my statements.

            “Apparently it didn’t take.” Oh… another ad hominem. I haven’t taken a single shot at you other than the fact I don’t like your style of writing or use of image macros.

            “Looks should not be such a central factor that they’re literally the only reason you ask someone, which is what you’re arguing in favor of.”

            I am arguing that it’s not part of a culture of oppression. After all, a woman can say no. AFTER that, if the guy persists, things become inappropriate.

            You make the assumption that because I made the initial proposition based off of looks, that somehow that’s the only thing I will ever care about. The relationship will not last long if I don’t actually enjoy spending time with her as a person.

            “Looks should not be such a central factor that they’re literally the only reason you ask someone, which is what you’re arguing in favor of.”

            Starting a sexual relationship with a friend is really difficult for a variety of reasons. As of right now, I have 5 people I consider good friends (3 guys, 2 women). Is my dating pool really limited to those 2 women? Well, I don’t see these women at all in a sexual way… I’ve known one since we were in kindergarten. So who am I allowed to look for a sexual relationship with?

            By your logic, I shouldn’t start a friendship with a woman with the intention of having sex (and I don’t… “friendzoning” is bullshit. You should be upfront with somebody about your expectations regarding any relationship. Otherwise, it will only lead to hurt feelings down the road).

            So how do I go about looking for a sexual relationship?

            A personal favorite is to ask a girl out for coffee. If she’s not interested, she says no and I go about my day. For every “yes” Ive gotten, there have been five times I’ve been told no.

          • JonathanNathan

            “All I said was that the way you dress will bring on a certain type of attention whether you like it or not.”–This particular disagreement we’re having reminds me a lot of the aftermath of the Steubenville trial. There was this big national conversation for a couple days about “how do we stop rape”? And everybody was talking about every possible answer except the obvious one: teach your sons not to rape. Every time that was brought up, it was dismissed with a “Look, cupcake, folks are gonna rape, that’s just gonna happen, so knock it off with the fantasies.” That, to me, is what you’re doing here. You’re basically saying, “Look, just give up and acknowledge that there are always going to be scumbags out there. Instead of holding those men accountable for their actions, women need to dress differently so they won’t be tempted beyond all capacity for reason.”

            “You make the assumption that because I made the initial proposition based off of looks, that somehow that’s the only thing I will ever care about.”–No, I do not make that assumption. What I’m saying is that when the initial proposition is made before you know ANYTHING about the woman other than how she looks, you are saying, quite obviously, that your primary motivating factor in asking is her looks. Because you have no other factor to go off of. And that’s not going to make women feel very humanized.

            “Starting a sexual relationship with a friend is really difficult for a variety of reasons.”–I didn’t say you had to. I said maybe try talking to a woman at the bar before you ask if you can take her out on a date.

            “I don’t… “friendzoning” is bullshit. You should be upfront with somebody about your expectations regarding any relationship.”–Well we agree on that.

            “A personal favorite is to ask a girl out for coffee. If she’s not interested, she says no and I go about my day.”–That’s a good one. I still think you should at least have enough of a social interaction with her first to be able to reasonably say, “Yeah, I think I might enjoy having coffee with this woman.”

          • Joel

            I had to sign up just to comment on this, specifically.

            According to this response, the only people we should justifiably approach are those we’ve gotten to know first – those who have been forced into our lives, both not based on looks and not based on prior understanding of the individual’s personality (for which we are inclined to get to know). In the outside world, these would include people at work, school, or personal friends.

            If we approach a woman at work, it’s generally grounds for sexual harassment – according to modern feminism. School is generally viewed the same way. And we should know an individual who is a personal friend well enough to understand whether there is a legitimate chance at starting a relationship with the person, according to you – correct?

            So please, in the laps you’ve run while arguing in circles, have you come up with a suggestion for what a straight male is to do, if not approach a woman asking her out on a date (which is somehow equated by you to an internal desire to either 1) oppress through dehumanization or 2) rape her)?

            I don’t know where you get this demonized view of a “date”, but the last time I checked, a “date” was an opportunity to get to know an individual. I have never slept with anyone on a first date, and I would never expect a woman to sleep with anyone after meeting them in a formal setting just one time.

            If a woman accepts my invitation out on a date, I can safely assume she also finds me attractive. Does this mean she is dehumanizing me, because she also knows nothing of me? What of a woman who asks me on a date first?

            Your arguments at this point with Alex seem forced, stretched out and way beyond the point. They hold no suggestive substance and are sorely lacking basis in either side of the argument.

          • JonathanNathan

            “According to this response, the only people we should justifiably approach are those we’ve gotten to know first”–No, that isn’t what I said.

            “If we approach a woman at work, it’s generally grounds for sexual harassment – according to modern feminism.”–Literally, if you “approach” a woman? As in, walk towards her?

            “So please, in the laps you’ve run while arguing in circles, have you come up with a suggestion for what a straight male is to do, if not approach a woman asking her out on a date”–Oh yeah, I seem to do fine by just striking up conversations. You know, talking about things?

            “I don’t know where you get this demonized view of a “date”, but the last time I checked, a “date” was an opportunity to get to know an individual.”–I don’t have a demonizing view of dates. What I object to is the idea of asking a woman out on a date purely based on her looks and nothing else. You wouldn’t start up a platonic friendship with a man based on his looks, because friendship is not about what someone looks like.

            “I have never slept with anyone on a first date”–How sad.

            “I would never expect a woman to sleep with anyone after meeting them in a formal setting just one time.”–Well someone just give you a medal.

            “If a woman accepts my invitation out on a date, I can safely assume she also finds me attractive.”–Bad assumption. She may feel like she has no other choice. She may feel cornered or threatened.

            “Does this mean she is dehumanizing me, because she also knows nothing of me?”–Nope. First of all, she does know something about you, based on your actions. Second, men are not living as second-class citizens in our society, so dehumanization/objectification really isn’t a big deal for us.

          • jorjms

            Asking that someone take responsibility for their own security is not “letting the perpetrator off the hook.”

            If I advise that someone not leave their car windows down when parking, I’m not absolving the thief that stole their radio.

            If I advise that someone leave some houselights on timers while vacationing, I’m not absolving the thief that stole their TV.

            If I advise you to look into an Intro to Logic class at your local community college, I’m certainly not absolving those who contributed to your education of their failure.

          • JonathanNathan

            It’s very considerate of you to compare rape to losing a car radio or a TV. It really shows that you get it.

          • jorjms

            It is called an analogy. It is a comparison between two or more things that are similar. Home security and personal security are similar.

            The fact that they are not identical does not in any way invalidate my point.

            Your attempt to derail my argument with emotional appeals also does not in any way invalidate my point.

          • JonathanNathan

            Actually, the fact that they are completely different things does invalidate your point. A person’s unnecessary material possessions are things that person should be responsible for protecting. A person’s sense of identity and self is something people should be decent enough to respect. If you don’t agree, we have very little to discuss.

          • jorjms

            I happen to believe that both “a person’s unnecessary material possessions” and “a person’s sense of identity and self” are things “people should be decent enough to respect.”

            However, I am not so naive as to believe that all people, all the time, are actually decent enough to respect them. As such I encourage people to act in ways that decrease their likelihood of becoming a victim.

          • DMANDICINO

            In short you silently approve and you ask that the victim change to appease the attacker. Women ask that we try and move in the direction of making the world a place where women are free to walk about without fear and first they have to fight you .

          • DMANDICINO

            Are you so threatened by one man trying to move into the future and be a complete human being that you have to berate him non stop until you win? All your logic and all your facts dont mean a thing because you aren’t a woman and you cannot define someone else for them. You are clueless and probably hopeless and you know nothing about what women deal with.

          • Aimee

            Sure, those would all make logical sense as comparisons if it weren’t for the fact that most rapes are perpetrated by people that the victims already knew. Those are great defenses against being robbed by strangers, but would you advise that someone never let their friend stay overnight at their house for fear that they might steal their tv? Or would you advise someone never to let their uncle borrow their car for fear they might bring it back without a stereo? Women are normally more cautious as they go through life than men are because they know that not only do they have to worry about the random male stranger who could easily overpower her, but they also have to worry about friends, acquaintances, lovers, former lovers, and even family members suddenly taking advantage of them.

            I know as a woman I try to avoid walking city streets at night alone, I hold my car keys defensively as I enter a parking lot if it is dark out, I keep my cellphone on me so I can call the cops if I need to whenever I am out on my own, I try to avoid walking too closely to groups of young men who I do not know even in the daylight, I drive to places I could walk to just because I know my streets aren’t that safe and I always drive with my car doors locked… don’t you dare tell me I don’t do enough to take responsibility for my own security when I’m willing to bet you don’t think twice about doing many of the things that I purposefully avoid out of fear for my own safety.

            Just pause for a second and try to imagine your life for one day as a woman in the city. I bet it comes nothing close to reality. This is how we can say that women are still being oppressed.

          • jorjms

            I never told you anything Aimee. I don’t know who you are.

            It sounds like you take sensible precautions to reduce your chances of becoming a victim. I applaud that and I support your decision to be so proactive in regards to your own personal safety.

          • DMANDICINO

            And you still don’t have a clue. Its sad really that you can’t understand why a woman might like to do things you take for granted as you are walking around in a pair of shorts and no shirt on a hot day or when you take a walk in the moonlight or just not to be ogled, to have men stop talking directly to her breasts never seeing her face

          • DMANDICINO

            Ah, equating a woman getting thrown down on the ground, restrained and forcibly violated because she was wearing clothing you judge to be to much for a male to resist with someone not rolling up their windows. Its ok with you then to tell females they can’t dress as they choose without being violated by a male? Do you have to ask yourself before you dress if what you choose to wear might get you raped? Thats cause you don’t have a single clue what women deal with.

          • DMANDICINO

            Ya, men can’t help themselves little girl. If you wear clothes that you enjoy wearing it might set off the beast and they just can’t control themselves. Try living that way for awhile. Its great not to be able to walk the streets or be out alone at night or wear clothing that is weather appropriate cause some raging ego beast has been taught that if she’s alone and dressed sexy he cant control himself. Grow up males, someday you will finally have to so why not get a headstart?

          • Glial

            Do women willingly choose jobs that pay less? I don’t believe so. Let me address one of the issues that you brought up, mainly the engineer vs teacher profession. Is there a disproportionate amount of male engineers compared to female engineers? Yes. Have you ever wondered why? Although you might claim that it’s simply because women don’t “choose” to be engineers, the issue is a bit more complex. From the get-go, women have had no support in fields such as engineering (predominantly electrical, mechanical, and civil engineering).

            Since elementary school, girls have been encouraged to dismiss notions of becoming hard scientists and engineers simply because society has beliefs that these professions are too hard for women. The most common method, at least from my childhood, that teachers have used to dismiss hard sciences for girls is the unsupported statement: “Girls are better at reading and art and boys are good at math and science.”
            However, when a woman decides to go against this norm, they meet up with opposition from males. “You shouldn’t go into engineering, it’s too hard.” “How will you compete with the boys? They’re so much better at physics.”

            Even when females make it to the engineering department, they’re alienated by the constant, “Why are you here?” vibes exuding from their predominantly male classmates and sometimes professors. For example: In my introductory engineering course, there were approximately 135 males and 17 females. On the first day of lecture, I heard: “There are a lot of girls in this class.” To which the responses were: “Don’t worry, they’ll probably drop out after today.” Even worse was the comment: “I betcha they’re only here to find husbands.”

            Women in engineering constantly have to “prove” themselves worthy of being in the profession. It’s toxic and can cause severe depression, and since most women have already dismissed engineering as a career since childhood, female engineers have little to no support groups.

            No wonder there aren’t very many women who succeed in becoming engineers. However, I don’t believe this is simply “women not choosing to be engineers.” They were set up to fail from the start. Women don’t choose lower salary jobs. Society has made it “acceptable” for women to have the lower salary jobs and made it discretely impossible for most women to have higher salary jobs.

          • Alex

            Women don’t choose lower salary jobs. Society has made it “acceptable”
            for women to have the lower salary jobs and made it discretely
            impossible for most women to have higher salary jobs.”

            The pay scale of these jobs has far less to do with the percentage of men/women than it does with market forces. Namely, how much education a certain profession requires, how hard it is to succeed in a certain profession, the demand there is for that profession in the market etc.

            “Do women willingly choose jobs that pay less? I don’t believe so. Let me
            address one of the issues that you brought up, mainly the engineer vs
            teacher profession.”

            Which is exactly why I said the following :

            “These choices could be the result of personal preferences or sexist
            cultural expectations for women’s work, though the relative influence of
            these two factors remains unclear.”

            I tried to emphasize to Jonathan that this is the issue. That ultimately it comes down to choices; the cause for these choices as of right now, is not perfectly clear. I characterize them as “choices” because whether there is an influence or not, the decisions that are made are voluntary from a legal standpoint.

            Do women get ostracized in science and math? Definitely. However, I do not know to what degree and how much that deters women from entering the field.

            In my computer science classes, (at an extremely liberal private school in the San Francisco Bay Area) the breakdown was 9 boys and 2 girls. This was a school that never discouraged girls from going into the sciences, and that had many female students who went to equally progressive elementary/middle schools.

            Therefore, I don’t know if this disparity was the result of educators (which is unlikely considering the school), or parents (also unlikely, as many parents at that school self identified as feminists), or the culture in general, or whether it truly was a matter of personal preference. For me personally, as one of the only individuals who played varsity sports (soccer specifically), I felt like I spent the class having to prove that I wasn’t “outside of my range” with regard to computer science.

            With that in mind, my experience with these subjects has always been that results are always the most important thing. Back in my computer science class, I respected whoever knew what they were doing. Out of the 11 kids in the course, only 6 were able to get proficient with the material (5 boys, 1 girl).

          • Aimee

            As a woman in her mid-twenties, I need to address #5. I am not a
            fashion-forward woman nor do I dress to impress men or women. I mostly
            dress to be comfortable and couldn’t care less what others think unless
            I’m trying to look professional. However, wanting to be comfortable
            means when it is very hot outside, I’m going to wear as little clothing
            as possible because when I sweat it makes me itch to high heaven. I am
            not wearing the short shorts and tank top to attract any sort of sexual
            attention and the assumption that I am doing it for that reason would be
            incredibly wrong as in any other kind of weather I dress modestly and
            honestly hate showing off a ton of skin (yes, I am that girl in cooler
            weather in the baggy jeans and hoodie, totally unsexy but comfy).
            However, comfort trumps looks in all ways when it comes to dressing for
            me, so yes, I wear skimpy clothes in hot weather for COMFORT and that is
            the only reason. When I want to dress skimpy for sex appeal? I do that in private for my man and always have been that way as I don’t want to bare my goods for all the world to see unless absolutely necessary (see above: really hot day). Good-day, sir.

          • Terrier Hockey

            Asking a woman on a date is the best way to get to know her. Yes her looks are why a man approached her but her personality and his personality are what will determine the outcome and lasting power of any potential relationship that may or may not form. It seems like you’re the type of person who doesn’t like that physical looks are attractive to males.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Asking a woman on a date is the best way to get to know her.”–Asking a woman to put herself in a potentially hazardous situation, alone at night with a man she’s never heard of before, which will cause her to be guarded and mildly uneasy the entire time, is the best way to get to know her? Gee, I thought it was striking up a conversation.

            “It seems like you’re the type of person who doesn’t like that physical looks are attractive to males.”–First of all, detective, you should be able to deduce that I am a male. Not a lot of ladies running around under the name of “Jonathan.” Second, you know who else is attracted by physical looks? Everybody. Let me guess, you’re one of those “guys go for looks, girls go for status” people, right?

          • Alex

            –Asking a woman to put herself in a potentially hazardous situation, alone at night with a man she’s never heard of before, which will cause her to be guarded and mildly uneasy the entire time, is the best way to get to know her

            First dates can, and usually do, occur in public settings (a coffee shop, a restaurant, a park)

            “Let me guess, you’re one of those “guys go for looks, girls go for status”
            You’ve made such a big deal about people not “understanding your article” or claiming you said stuff that you didn’t. Stop acting like a hypocrite. He never claimed or implied that with his statement. He merely said that looks are attractive to males. Anything beyond that from that quote is extrapolation.

          • JonathanNathan

            “First dates can, and usually do, occur in public settings (a coffee shop, a restaurant, a park)”–And nothing bad ever happened to a woman at night in a park.

          • Hockey Culture Hater

            Hmmm Terrier hockey… As a Boston University student I’d like to remind you of exactly what two of our fine school’s hockey players perpetrated just last year. Hint: rape and attempted rape. Sure, the charges were later dropped (another symptom of the sickness of rape culture and the difficulty of victims to achieve justice), but knowing one of the victims, at least one of those assholes assaulted a woman. Not to mention the damning report that surfaced during the investigation of the team’s “culture of rape.” If you carefully read Jonathan’s thoughtful article, he says nothing about physical attraction between males and females being wrong, only males using that attraction as the sole basis for their valuation of a woman’s worth.

            For the report on Terrier Hockey’s culture of depravity, read on (including a sex party in the penalty box! What a way to celebrate a historic win):

            http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2012/09/06/salacious-details-emerge-from-hockey-subcommittee-reports/ekiKZxGXpGgFfPQ4gzNQ9O/story.html

        • DMANDICINO

          But again, if you could get your ego out of everyones faces for a moment, its not your place to decide what women have to tolerate whether you decide it is or not.

      • ChicagoJohn

        Regarding the pay gap… I think that Fact Check addressed this pretty well:
        http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-77-cent-exaggeration/

        • jorjms

          But that article is just a bunch of sciency words! There wasn’t a single over the top appeal to emotion! How could I possibly be expected to read through it?

    • Derek Hatfield

      Very well said.

    • Zee

      Women who are dressed provocatively are not necessarily looking to be sexualized or raped. For more on this topic, you should check out the SlutWalk marches and what they represented.

    • DMANDICINO

      Perhaps like me she knows something about the subject because she lives it. And your constant whining for evidence everytime you are bested is pathetic. If I wanted to waste my time on you I could give you evidence of male privilege until you drowned in it.

  • Joshua Moody

    Great article. I disagree that consenting sex when there are differing levels of intoxication necessarily means rape. I also disagree that sex when there was an initial “no” followed by a “yes” at some later point necessarily means rape. I also disagree that complimenting others on their looks, picking up strangers, and avoiding the friendzone are necessarily against the philosophy of feminism.

    However, the rest of it, spot on. There’s still work that needs to be done in this country.

    • Derek Hatfield

      Joshua, you said a lot in your comment. And I’m warning you that with the attitudes you just expressed, you may one day find yourself in trouble….serious trouble….You have to realize that to feminists, you are just a man. You have no rights, nor do you deserve them, particularly in your interactions with females. Perhaps you haven’t yet realized that it is considered rape when there is an initial yes, then no, then yes, then no…..and then a year later you are arrested. The “accidental” rape that our friend Jonathan was referring to. And of course, the woman can also CLAIM she was drunk. A year later. And the guy goes to prison for 5 years or more for “rape”. As if the GUY is supposed to do an alcohol test on the female before trying to seduce her. (yes, seduce, because that is what women want – to be seduced – it’s part of the game). And of course, the female is never to be held accountable for her actions – getting drunk, and giving permission, then “regretting” it later and crying “rape”. And yes, that happens. Think about that.

      • JonathanNathan

        You are the creepiest person in the world. “Women want to be seduced”? “Part of the game”? Good God. You’re horrifying.

        • Derek Hatfield

          Yes, that’s what feminists say, particularly women, when men mention what they have to do to find a partner. And yes, building a relationship is a game of cat and mouse, where neither side wants to embarass themselves or advance too much info. But when either a man or a woman is interested in another person, a game starts where they try to build the relationship and draw that person closer. I really have to tell you this???? You don’t know that women like flowers, chocolates, jewellery, compliments? lol Dude, this convesation is ridiculous. You are so sexist, so bigotted there this is not even a conversation worth having. My God.

          • Derek Hatfield

            By the way, how the f**k do you know what kind of person I am? Just for the record, I believe in democracy and free speech. Principles which feminists do NOT support unless the free speech is in their favour. Then they start hurling insults and attacking their detractors character. Same dance. Always the same. And you wonder why I’m not a feminist….

          • JonathanNathan

            “By the way, how the f**k do you know what kind of person I am?”–Based on the things that you say. You know, the same way anybody judges a person. The same way you’re judging me, for that matter.

            “Principles which feminists do NOT support unless the free speech is in their favour.”–First of all, that’s not true. Feminists are not trying to BAN misogynistic speech. They’re just trying to make people like you feel shitty about saying it. Second, I’m pretty sure you’re from the UK. How difficult is it for you to be a conservative misogynist, given that the matron saint of British conservatism is a woman?

          • JonathanNathan

            “A game of cat and mouse”? Yikes. Should I be calling the authorities? Are you about to go full-on serial killer? A relationship is a really good friendship between two people who have sex with each other. I guess on the planet you’re from, it’s like a war or something, but here on Earth, the idea is that it’s supposed to be fun.

            “You don’t know that women like flowers, chocolates, jewellery, compliments?”–I know they like to be treated as if they were individual human beings who can’t all be easily categorized into a subspecies that likes flowers, chocolates, and jewelry. But I guess that’s why I have a more favorable opinion of women than you do: I actually get to fucking know them. See, to me, the women in my life are actual people. To you, they’re a puzzle to be solved with a vagina at the center.

          • Mandy Heath

            “See, to me, the women in my life are actual people. To you, they’re a puzzle to be solved with a vagina at the center.”

            Lets be friends!

          • JonathanNathan

            OK!

          • Mandy Heath

            “But when either a man or a woman is interested in another person, a game starts where they try to build the relationship and draw that person closer. I really have to tell you this???? You don’t know that women like flowers, chocolates, jewellery, compliments?”

            I want none of those things. And my bf did none of those things in order to “seduce” me. He wasn’t trying to seduce me at all. He was trying to get to know me. Like a REAL person.

          • guest

            Really not worth arguing with are the feminists on this site, I was hoping to learn something, but instead found a load of man-hating, paranoid nutters, who are unwilling or unable to see past their warped irrational one-sided view.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Christine-Moore/590370150 Christine Moore

        I hope someone reported this guy, I have a feeling Derek is a serial rapist. These comments have seriously creeped me out… *shudders*

        • guest

          Reading through these comments I just had to comment myself. Going by my observation, it does appear that feminism is more a hate movement against men, there has been some good arguments put forward by commentators on this site, only for some radical, yes radical, to completely disregard it as a hate speech or accusations that the commentator is pro-rape(shaming tactics), I would guess that you “C Moore”, are probably a very bitter hateful women who needs to get out more and maybe see an head doctor, as you come across as border line psychotic, and at the very least “Paranoid.

    • JonathanNathan

      “I disagree that consenting sex when there are differing levels of intoxication necessarily means rape.”–Then you disagree with the law.

      “I also disagree that sex when there was an initial “no” followed by a “yes” at some later point necessarily means rape.”–Again, you disagree with the law. No means no, even if later pressure causes a yes.

      “I also disagree that complimenting others on their looks, picking up strangers, and avoiding the friendzone are necessarily against the philosophy of feminism.”–Women live in a society in which they are constantly catcalled, hit on, picked up on, ogled. Complimenting a random stranger on her looks is not helping that. Picking up on a stranger is fine in the appropriate context, but don’t treat her like meat.

      As for the friendzone, the problem with it is that it suggests that friendship with a woman is this awful punishment. It’s ultimately just a weird way of saying “she doesn’t want to fuck me, so I’m angry at her.” It’s a very creepy attitude, because it basically says that you never cared about her, you just wanted to fuck her.

      • dashed

        “Then you disagree with the law.”

        Laws don’t dictate morality.

        “even if later pressure causes a yes.”

        Define pressure. Is begging pressure? How about if you threaten to break up/stop seeing them?

        “As for the friendzone, the problem with it is that it suggests that
        friendship with a woman is this awful punishment. It’s ultimately just a
        weird way of saying “she doesn’t want to fuck me, so I’m angry at her.”"

        Depends on how they’re using it. I’ve seen it used that way, I’ve also seen it used as a short hand for “I asked him/her out and they said they only wanted to be friends”.

        • JonathanNathan

          “Is begging pressure? How about if you threaten to break up/stop seeing them?”–Depends on specifics, but most likely, yes.

          • dashed

            Peer pressure/begging is not coercion and it does not make something rape. Just like a salesman isn’t robbing you when he goes for a hard sell. Slimey yes, but you weren’t forced into it.

          • JonathanNathan

            Said a guy who’s never had to experience any of the shit he’s talking about, but wants to tell women how wrong they are about their own experiences.

          • dashed

            I don’t need to be a woman to know what coercion and rape mean. coercion – the act of compelling by force of authority. Begging doesn’t cut it.

          • Aimee

            Simple begging, probably not. Verbal or emotional abuse? Probably rape. Verbal and emotional abuse can be plenty damaging to a person even if it leaves no visible markings. So, being abused until you give in because you just want the abuse to stop? I’d call that rape whether it fits the dictionary definition of coercion or not.

  • Derek Hatfield

    Curious why your system is not letting me respond to you, Nathan…

  • Rick352

    You know, I want to agree with this “everyone should be a feminist argument.” However, I don’t want to be a feminist. I want women to stick up for themselves. And I don’t know that sticking up for them is going to achieve that. Women need more confidence and better self protection. Strong women probably almost always do ok. I’ve had female bosses that were just as successful as most men. But it was because they did some things that most men do. For example, why should I advocate higher pay for women when women are terrible about not having the guts to ask for a raise. In my experience men who are that weak are also underpaid. If women are so equal then that’s something they should take responsibility for.

    And that’s just one example.

    Its not that I don’t agree that women are still oppressed in many ways. I just don’t know that its productive to stick up for them, as much as its productive to encourage them.

    • shopel

      “Its not that I don’t agree that women are still oppressed in many ways. I
      just don’t know that its productive to stick up for them.”
      You might as well admit that your are complacent. Change doesn’t happen unless those in a position of power change their views on those who are not. You might as well say that it is a woman’s fault when she is raped. Why couldn’t she say no, or push the guy off, or carry mace, or wear a less slutty outfit. She shouldn’t HAVE to do these things to stop getting raped. Just as, i shouldn’t have to ask to get a raise to get paid the same amount as you, when we do the same job and your starting salary was higher.

      • Rick352

        Why shouldn’t you have to ask for the raise? I did.

        That is a major difference in men and women. Men ask for raises! You just made my point.

        My starting salary at my first job was $22,000 a year. Within two years I was well over double that. I had to threaten to quit. I actually turned a notice in. But I knew they needed me.

        I make a lot more than that now after having to quit a job where ONLY women seemed to get promoted. But I didn’t whine about it. I just left.

        Two weeks ago a female family member of mine who should have done the same thing a year ago finally got up the nerve to do the same thing. They gave her a raise.

        I’m NOT complacent. I have encourage numerous women to take stands for themselves. And that’s all I’m saying. But it has to happen at a personal level.

        And if we’re at a point that we have to educate men in terms of what is and isn’t rape… I think we’re all doomed.

        • shopel

          You might want to read that again

          “Just as, I shouldn’t have to ask to get a raise to get paid the same amount as you, when we do the same job and your STARTING SALARY WAS HIGHER”

          • Rick352

            Why would I want to read it again? You wrote a statement assuming a man has a higher starting salary. I don’t know what your personal starting salary was but mine was not higher than where they started women at any company I’ve ever worked for. One of the jobs was a university job. Those salaries are set. I don’t know where you live but there aren’t many starting salaries for jobs like the one I took that are less than $22,000. And I was hired by women for both of my first two jobs.

            The only men who get paid more are the ones that stick up for themselves and demand it. There is no conspiracy for men to make more money. At least not in the area where I live. But there are plenty of women who make less because they are too afraid to stick up for themselves.

          • JonathanNathan

            1) Nobody said there was a conspiracy. The term is “systemic.”

            2) “At least not in the area where I live.”–Which, of course, is a completely valid way of evaluating the entire world.

            3) “But there are plenty of women who make less because they are too afraid to stick up for themselves.”–Gee, I wonder why that might be.

          • Rick352

            Johathan, you’re mighty combative which I guess is a feminist trait.

            I think articles like this are basically saying women can’t take care of themselves. How can we treat them as equal when we carry a belief that they will never be ok unless we stick up for them or never offend them? I actually believe we train women to believe they are weak (and they are definitely not). That’s all I’m saying. Your article just adds to that belief. And I think that does more damage than good.

          • JonathanNathan

            If you think it does more damage than good to teach men not to rape women, then I’m afraid we have very little to discuss. You find me one thing in the article which suggested that women are weak. Women are not weak. Women are, however, being raped at a rate of about 20% in this country. The best way to stop that from happening is to stop raping them. Do I make myself clear?

        • JonathanNathan

          You shouldn’t have to ask for a raise on behalf of your entire gender.

          “And if we’re at a point that we have to educate men in terms of what is and isn’t rape… I think we’re all doomed.”–Then we’re doomed.

  • Will Geddes

    when you’re trying to make a point about how telling a woman she looks beautiful is a contribution to a culture of oppression, and leads to an objectification and subjugation of women, and punctuate it with photos of Ryan Gosling’s smoldering bedroom eyes, or without his shirt on, which is obviously male objectification by women, it kind of waters down your point.

    if your idea of equality means “don’t ever tell a girl she looks pretty” then i don’t want to live in your world.

    • JonathanNathan

      1) “Male objectification by women”–Whatever.

      2)”if your idea of equality means “don’t ever tell a girl she looks pretty” then i don’t want to live in your world.”–If your idea of reading an article is completely failing to comprehend the contents of it, then I don’t want to live in yours.

      • Derek Hatfield

        Again, Jonathan, you show yourself incapable of seeing the other side and the negative attitudes that you yourself are promoting. Could you please explain what is wrong about Will Geddes comment about male objectification by women?…..

      • Will Geddes

        1) whatever. great, well thought out, intelligent response.

        2) did you, or did you not, write the following: “But when you tell a random woman on the street that she looks beautiful
        today, or that she should smile; when you try to pick up on a girl at
        the bar without even bothering to try getting to know her first; when
        you tweet out that what happened in Steubenville was bad but that girl
        shouldn’t have gotten so drunk; when you talk about women as if they
        were sexual objects; when you complain about being “friendzoned”; when
        you do these and a thousand other little things, you oppress women.”

        yes, obviously the steubenville pricks deserve jail time. if it were up to me, i’d give them 25-to-life. fuck, if the powers that be decided to give them the chair i probably wouldn’t question it.

        however, telling someone, ANYONE, they are beautiful is not oppression, trying to pick someone up at a bar is NOT oppression, talking about women as sexual objects is NOT oppression (guess what? humans are sexual beings, obviously we are going to talk about all kinds of things in a sexual way), complaining about being friend-zoned is NOT oppression. any attempt to claim otherwise makes all of your other legitimate claims seem like a temper tantrum.

        rape is oppression, violence is oppression, bondage (the taliban kind, not the sexy kind) is oppression.

        furthermore, if anyone you know was legitimately fired for becoming pregnant, i’d advise them to contact a lawyer because that is illegal in the USA, according to the 1978 Pregnancy Discrimination Act (P.L. 95-555)

        • JonathanNathan

          “however, telling someone, ANYONE, they are beautiful is not oppression”–So if a woman lives her whole life being catcalled, picked up on, and creeped on by random strangers, you really think you’re helping out by telling her she’s hot? REALLY? Have you even thought this through, buttercup?

          “talking about women as sexual objects is NOT oppression (guess what? humans are sexual beings, obviously we are going to talk about all kinds of things in a sexual way)”–It’s a long walk from “sexual being” to “sexual object.” But what’s a little dehumanization among friends?

          “any attempt to claim otherwise makes all of your other legitimate claims seem like a temper tantrum.”–Yes, clearly, out of everyone in this comment thread, I’m the one throwing a temper tantrum.

          • Will Geddes

            you said calling someone beautiful, you didn’t say catcalled or creeped on. there is a difference. a girl told me the other day she liked my shirt. guess what, it was fine.

            guess what, sexualization happens BOTH ways, and unless you want to get into the moral ramifications of thought policing, then what people think about other people is none of your business. and on a related note, in every species on earth, physical attributes and physical displays influence mating and reproduction, so don’t pretend that human beings aren’t hard-wired to look at things in a sexual way.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Christine-Moore/590370150 Christine Moore

            Being expected to respond in a sexual, or even somewhat pleased way when some dude says “hey, you should smile, i’m saying you’re pretty” is irritating. I should have the right to say something along the lines of, “fuck off, I’m married” or simply, “I’m not interested” without being called a tramp, or a tease, because I’m not showing the same level of interest.

            Having a friend complain about being “friendzoned” is also oppression, a women should be able to have male friends without having some guy bitch and moan because she won’t sleep with him, because some men don’t understand the concept of just being friends. We shouldn’t have to feel pressured to have sex with our friends, just because they think that is the only reason for the friendship, this shouldn’t even be an issue. But I guess someone who is born a male has only understood what that is like, it’s a privilege thing I guess.

            I’m surprised anyone even needs to say this, but, treating women as sexual objects is oppression, we aren’t objects for male pleasure, and this applies to everything I said above, the only reason women get cat called, pressured by friends to sleep with them, or harassed at the bar, is because some men think we are objects.

          • JonathanNathan

            “you said calling someone beautiful, you didn’t say catcalled or creeped on.”–Calling a stranger beautiful when she didn’t ask for your opinion is creeping.

            “a girl told me the other day she liked my shirt. guess what, it was fine.”–It was fine because you don’t go through life under the threat of rape, constantly being catcalled and creeped on. False equivalence.

            “then what people think about other people is none of your business.”–Which is why it’s perfectly fine to be racist!

            “in every species on earth, physical attributes and physical displays influence mating and reproduction, so don’t pretend that human beings aren’t hard-wired to look at things in a sexual way.”–And of course we should be modeling all of our societal norms on the animal kingdom. That’s why I plan to eat my children.

          • dashed

            “”a girl told me the other day she liked my shirt. guess what, it was
            fine.”–It was fine because you don’t go through life under the threat
            of rape, constantly being catcalled and creeped on. False equivalence.”

            So it’s only oppression when it passes some threshold of people telling her she’s nice and that we know it’s past that threshold whenever it’s said to a woman.

            What arbitrary silliness.

          • JonathanNathan

            Yes, it’s called “context.”

          • dashed

            No, it’s called making a blanket statement fallacy about every woman’s life.

          • JonathanNathan

            So you’re saying that in a society in which one in five women will be raped during her lifetime, women are not living with the fear of that happening to them?

          • dashed

            The 1 in 5 is based off an decades old study, and that would still leave the vast majority never raped.

          • JonathanNathan

            Wow. So at least we’re only raping 20% of them! What a wonderful society people like you have built!

          • dashed

            Nice deflection.

            And I did say your statistics were outdated.

          • ren

            We are. Which is why we automatically put our car keys between our knuckles and keep our peripheral vision wide open while we walk. You have no idea how bad it is.

          • Vallentina Ossitocina

            Don’t doubt it. WE ARE.

          • sKoo

            You have no idea.

          • dashed

            Wait actually I misread my source. 1 in 4 is based off old studies not 1 in 5. Sorry about that.

          • Bastet

            The latest statistics where I live is 1 in 3 which is the same for men in maximum security prison. Let me repeat this: a free woman/girl who has never broken the law has the same odds if being raped as a male murderer in maximum security prison.

          • francescapiante

            We are all afraid of everything, of rape, of being hit by the proverbial bus, of losing our mother, no matter how old we are, of contracting some dreaded disease, of losing our jobs, of spiraling down into poverty from there, and we each have our own unique fears to boot, but that doesn’t me that we don’t brush them aside and try to live in the here and now, recognizing full well, none of those things may ever happen to us. Actually, instead of catastrophizing we should remember, wonderful things could actually happen to us, we could meet the most wonderful person that we have dreamed about forever, we could be cherished and protected for the rest of our days, we could get healthier and healthier, and stronger and more flexible as time goes on, we could receive a promotion, or may even be able to start a foundation to help people that are homeless. Why can’t we stop and wonder about the wonders and the wonderful things created and meant to happen to each one of us.

          • JonathanNathan

            Let me see if I picked that up correctly: According to you, since all kinds of stuff might happen to anybody and we’re all afraid of stuff, we shouldn’t try to fix the things that cause those fears to exist? We should just be like, “Well, I guess some people are gonna get raped. Can’t do anything about it.”

          • francescapiante

            Some people are gonna get raped and some people are gonna become homeless, and I CAN and WILL do something about it. I have volunteered at our local Battered Women Hotline, and I work and volunteer at a homeless shelter, but do I try not to obsess myself with these fears on a daily basis? Yes, I definitely try not to wear those fears like a black cloud over my head, because otherwise I can forget the joie the vivre I love so well, and that I am expected to practice everyday, not one day and and one day off. If I don’t keep myself always to shift into gratitude, especially with the jobs I’ve held. I’ve worked with rapists and murders when they where no longer behind bars, nothing separated them from you, nor from anybody else. Did I have to look at the big picture and on how to cope most successfully, or did you want me to obsess for the 8 hour work shift and the 16 hours off, that yes, I could have gotten raped, since I was now working in a setting where 20 percent of the guys were rapists, from the same pen, one had just arrived that evening after 20 years in prison. I asked my boss rapist always get a slap on the wrist. My father always fiercely advocated for castration. What did this guy do, to be in the pen for 20 years. My boss told me, it was rape and murder. Beautiful, now I felt really safe going in and counseling him, in the office with the door closed behind him. It was surely what my whole career built up to. Suddenly, I would have preferred cleaning gas stations’ toilets. And same goes for my fears of homelessness, they are real they are relentless, especially how badly things are turning out now for those not in the 1% and especially for those who are at the bottom of the totem pole, sick, unable to work, and feed themselves and their family. This is reality. These fears, are not shadows, they are columns, and yet you have to drape them in sheer purple silk and see them under a different light, forget the power they WILL have over you, if you LET them, and smile when you walk into work and your 10:00 am is already in the lobby, waiting for his appointment. When he steps into the office after you and closes the door behind himself, you just smile, and say to yourself and to Her: “o.k., God, this is all in YOUR hands. And so be it”, and then you look at him borrowing the love Christ has in our hearts for us, and you ask him how his week has gone, and hope and pray, that he too, could someday see the light, a light so pure that it will reveal all the cobwebs of his mind to him, and that he will fall on the ground and cry, and most of all that God will see him, and pour His love unto him, the way a mother pours her love unto a wayward child — always and forever.

            The choice is ours,

            Francesca
            Executive Director
            St.Francis International Laughing Shepherds’ Community
            413 586 5881
            website is being up dated. Will be up within to weeks. COME and SEE US!

          • Kat McAllistair

            Of course it’s arbitrary silliness, it’s based entirely on feelings. Feelings are created by the feeler so right and wrong are defined entirely by their whims.

          • francescapiante

            lots of women and men great each other, regardless of the sex the person they are greeting may be, “Ciao, bello, or ciao bella”.
            They are lucky they don’t realize that this would be treated as a heinous crime in the U.S.

          • JonathanNathan

            It would not be treated as a heinous crime. But it is creepy and not okay.

          • DesertLL

            Will, he’s talking about people like you. You are the subject of the article! So just accept it, and either change or don’t, but please be honest about what you read. Stop making a bunch of shit up that he did not say or imply. The fact that you are arguing with a completely clear article about objectification of women says a lot about how privileged you are. You’re proving his point.

          • Aimee

            There is a big difference between calling someone beautiful and saying you like their shirt. Saying, “Hey, nice shirt” compliments a person’s taste in clothing and can strike up a conversation about where they got it and is overall a conversation about an OBJECT. Complimenting someone on their looks treats them as their body is nothing more than an object rather than seeing them as a whole person. How is that conversation supposed to go? “Yeah thanks, I was born with this, would you like to see the whole thing?” Can you see how this is creepy? Would you ever tell a fellow man how good looking he is unless he’s a friend? Of course not, and maybe not even then. If you want to compliment a girl’s looks, compliment her dress or her shoes or her shirt, and she’ll take that much better than complimenting her body because she sees you’re interested in her style, which is a thing of mind, not body, and that makes all the difference.

          • francescapiante

            Wow, I never heard anything like this until a very wonderful man at my church came by the receiving line that I stand it at the church, right after the service, every Sunday, and said, “I hope you won’t feel it is an insult if I say you look beautiful”. I had to usher that Sunday, and that made me feel really important, that I was asked to help out, and I remember saying to myself “You have to dress extra nice, to do justice to this homage, to show how important it is to you, and how much you appreciate it”, so I dressed up, even more than usual. I asked him: “How could that be an insult? He replied “it is part of being politically correct; it’s as if a guy told a woman she looked beautiful is like saying I checked you out, or I’m checking you out”. I never heard anything like it.

            Since I am on the receiving line every Sunday, and mostly everyone at my church goes through the receiving line, I always tell each individual, male or female, complimentary things about how they look on that particular Sunday, like
            “you look so beautiful”, “hello, beautiful woman”, “hello, you handsome guy” and so on and so forth. I never even knew that people were still peering under their beds for communists.

            Lighten up, people. It is good to compliment each other on anything and everything. Compliments, even when one says, like I do, “hello, beautiful woman”, or “hello you handsome guy” don’t mean anything sexual, unless you mean it. Every woman is a beautiful woman, and every guy a handsome guy. God made us that way, so why try to change it? I grew up in a culture that thrives on compliments for everybody.

            Tonight when I visited my 9 year old niece, I told her “you are becoming a more gorgeous young woman every time I see you”, and would have said “you are becoming a more gorgeous young man every time I see you” to my nephew, except he wasn’t home tonight. What is wrong with telling people that they are precious in your eyes?

            I think God expects us to. We do so much tearing down, 24 hours a day, even in our dreams. Isn’t there ever a reprieve when we can see each other according to the streams of colored lights that emanate from each and everyone of us?

            And since I had never heard such a notion as the one my guy friend at church had mentioned, some rubbish about checking people out, I wonder, when did this start? Is it the tail end of the politically correct enforcement period, and if so, just what is that timeline? How or who made this whole enforcement period start? When I visit hit Italy, it seems we haven’t been hit the same paranoid movement, at least not yet. I am glad, because I am cherishing my nieces and nephewd, as I did above, the very same way those who loved me cherished me, and I remember how the compliments made me feel loved and cherished. My friends, and my family members, and the church goers that attend my church know full well they look resplendent in my eyes, and so do all the men and women who make a point to come and see me after the sermon.

            O.k. people, lighten up, and then breathe. You’ll see, not taking yourself so seriously may add years to your life, not to mention, allow yourself to enjoy and rejoice in the here and now.

            Ciao,

            Francesca

          • Niv P

            “a girl told me the other day she liked my shirt. guess what, it was fine. guess what, sexualization happens BOTH ways”

            It however has been so one sided for so long that the lines of what it means now for women and men have become so blurred it is hard for us to determine whether it is genuine or not. Women experience sexual objectification, violence mistreatment so regularly it is sometimes really difficult for a man to really comprehend the impact.

            It is important to have the conversation and we are going to fell challenged because our common held beliefs are not always going to align with what you feel. We are sexual beings but presently there is inequality with how this is experienced. I complement people all the time because that is in my nature. I see something I like, I tell them. I want to connect to people around me and enjoy my human experience. However, due to my experiences with many men and some women I can’t completely relax. Some men are totally unaware of their predatory nature (not exclusively but esp when alcohol is involved) or women allowing themselves to be treated poorly by males because no one around stands up to it and it is the social norm in their community. (I see it a lot working with teenage boys and girls).

            I have two teenage boys and the conversation of slut and stud came up in a conversation last night. It is a prime example of how a behaviour when genderised has totally different meaning… Being sexual is cool and not stigmatised for men yet different for women. While this belief is changing it is still prevalent even in subtle forms. Language is a big one.

            I could go on and on. I think what the author is asking (and maybe a little defensively at times for some of you) is for you to rethink what you think, have a conversation and work on your process to creating a more equal society. It is for the benefit of us all….

          • Lesley Erickson

            So she liked your shirt, awesome. You think that’s “sexualization”? Now, if she’d looked at you like a piece of meat and said that she really likes the way that shirt looks above that bulging package of yours, that would be closer to the sum of what most women deal with on a regular basis. Guess what, 9 times out of 10 the way a man looks at a woman is perceived as predatory, because that’s how we keep ourselves safe! Being a feminist man will help men to not be perceived immediately as predators. It will make it so you don’t have to PROVE to a woman that you don’t intend to hurt her.

          • Lorenza70

            She liked your shirt Dude, she didn’t say she liked you. Commenting on an object is one thing, commenting on a person as an object is another.

          • Ben

            Is it possible comment on a person without making them an object?

          • sKoo
          • francescapiante

            You sound like the only sane person I’ve listened to in a long while. Thanks Will, for restoring my faith in others.

        • DMANDICINO

          I know that to people with excessive testosterone levels the idea of having strange people constantly hitting on you and making sexual comments and treating you like a sex object seems like a dream come true but since most women do not like to be objectified once again, you do not get to define the terms. If women generally don’t like it and feel its manipulative and oppressive then it is. And thanks for the nice mansplain!

          • francescapiante

            How women feel is comprised of such different individuals views and feelings that the word “generally” doesn’t apply.

        • francescapiante

          more power to you

        • King Walker IIIV

          YOU ARE A GOD. no but seriously way to shut this RADICAL feminist man how off base he was with this article

    • Derek Hatfield

      Exactly. But feminists feel the rules they apply to men should not be applied to them. Always a double-standard.

      • emageddon

        Feminists believe that men and women should be equal. They believe that the rules should apply equally to men and women. This is such a simple concept, I’m not sure what you’re having trouble with here. I don’t know who the “feminists” you are talking about are, but dismissing an entire movement in the way you did above is at best ignorant and misinformed, and at worst grossly misogynistic.

        • JonathanNathan

          Oh, he’s plenty gross and misogynistic.

        • Terrier Hockey

          Sexual dimorphism makes it impossible for men and women to ever be completely equal.

          • Glial

            However, that doesn’t give an excuse for not creating as much equality between men and women as we possibly can. If we understand that full equality will never happen, but we should still aim for as much equality as possible, this world will be a better place.

          • Vallentina Ossitocina

            actually I don’t know the shades of the word equal in english, so I can’t be sure there is a vocabulary real difference between “equal” and “identical” .. but I’m pretty sure when we talk about men and women being equal, everyone means they’re even, peer, at the same level; of course nobody is saying they’re exactly alike!

          • King Walker IIIV

            I’m sorry but NOBODY is equal. When we as a society can understand that we will all be so much happier

          • sKoo

            just because 1+3 and 2+2 are different does not mean they can’t both equal the same thing.

          • Devin

            What a completely cissexist view. A man and a woman could have the same sex, ergo very similar bodies, yet different genders.

      • Guest

        Oh brilliant, I’ve now read more of your comments on this article and see that you’re actually some paranoid insecure delusional who thinks that women are secretly trying to take over the world using their short skirts to spread the “virus of feminism”. So, good luck with life and all that.

        • JonathanNathan

          I’m kind of wondering if I should call someone about this dude. I’m worried that I’m going to end up reading about him eating somebody’s face or something.

          • Matthew E. Duffy

            semble plutôt chaud.

          • JonathanNathan

            Vous semblez dégoûtant.

          • Guest

            i ment about the eating people/ jeezy

          • JonathanNathan

            Yeah, I knew what you meant.

    • Clark Greenfield

      Will, I think that a man posting pictures of Ryan Gosling without his shirt on actually male objectification BY A MALE…

      Also the author didn’t say “don’t ever tell a girl she looks pretty.” He’s talking about hassling random women you don’t know on the street.

      • King Walker IIIV

        You don’t have to be a woman to objectify a man sexually…

    • thefriendzoner

      Do you know what a meme is? He’s using a popular aspect of internet culture to show a point.

    • taitaisanchez

      What?

      There’s a huge difference between harassment and telling a girl she looks pretty.

      Consider the context of where you’re at, what you’re doing and what she’s doing.

      If you’re at a bar or poetry slam or otherwise engaging her as a person and you’re having a conversation and flirting, TELL HER SHE’S FUCKING PRETTY.

      If you’re on the street or the subway or at the dry cleaners getting your gimp suit cleaned, DON’T FUCKING BOTHER

    • francescapiante

      good for you.

  • Michele Doolan

    Wow, Jonathan, you not only managed to post a great article, but additionally managed to inspire some pretty entertaining commentary from some choice individuals.

    Thanks!

  • Jeff Carlson

    So, Gen X was the first wave of kids raised by feminists, correct? I’d be very curious to see what the stats on their marriage/divorce rates are. I know the trend for Gen X and Gen Y couples has been to wait a lot longer to have kids, if they have them at all.

    • JonathanNathan

      Your point is?

      • Jeff Carlson

        Speaking strictly from an interpersonal relationship aspect, I’m seeing more and more high-achieving women “Lean In” and a lot their supportive (male feminist) partners getting left behind.

        • JonathanNathan

          If a man is out-achieved by a woman, it’s probably because she’s working her ass off and he’s coasting.

  • Mia Herd

    This is an incredible article. Thank you so much.

  • ali meowmeow

    Well, as sad as a few of the commenters make me, your article made me happy. And even the bad comments did make it clear that more conversations like this need to happen, since a lot of very not-feminist assumptions seem to get made by otherwise reasonable men.
    But thanks for writing something I’ll undoubtedly be sharing with others.

  • Mochipants

    This was beautifully written. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. I just came back from a convention that was so awful it was dubbed the “Rape Con” because of the high number of groping and harassment reports from female cosplayers and con-goers alike.

    As for the “men” that are honestly trying to argue against this by using the same old tired make-up statistic that women always get full custody, that alimony is unfair, yadda yadda yadda, I got news for you: First off, that’s not true. But more importantly, feminists don’t like the concept of alimony because it propels a patriarchal belief that women are unable to financially support themselves.

    So if you truly want to argue that you lost custody of your kids and don’t want to pay alimony to your ex-wife, the simple solution is to become a feminist.

    And then maybe you should look to yourself for reasons why the courts denied custody in the first place. If it’s because you’re an angry, bitter, dangerous person who openly shows hatred and bitterness to women, there’s your sign.

    • JonathanNathan

      “Rape Con”…isn’t that like every convention? I only know what I’ve heard; I don’t go to cons because I really don’t like to be around the sort of guys that do. Maybe I’ll go to MorrisonCon some day if they do another one of those; I’d like to think it wouldn’t be as bad.

      I’m of two minds on alimony. On the one hand, yeah, I get where you’re coming from. On the other hand, let’s say some stay-at-home mom gets ditched by her husband, or maybe he’s an abuser and she successfully gets away from him. She’s completely out in the cold with no support system and no way of paying the bills. I feel like that’s where alimony makes sense.

      • Mochipants

        I agree with you on that one, but since such scenarios are rare, court-ordered alimony should be just as uncommon.

        • JonathanNathan

          Yeah, I’d say we basically agree. There are other scenarios that I would say call for some form of support. If one parent gets primary or sole custody of a child, the other parent should be responsible for some of the caretaking of that child–unless the parent with primary or sole custody makes an insane amount of money, so on and so forth. Ultimately, I think alimony should be the same as any other result of a divorce should be: carefully considered and weighed based on the individual merits of the case. It’s one of the reasons I think mediation works a lot better than the courts, w/r/t divorce, most of the time.

        • Kitsune

          As someone who works in Domestic Violence, that scenario is far more common than you think. Sadly, those are the cases in which the woman is usually not paid alimony because it can be a serious safety risk. If an abuser can send a check, he can find his victim.

          • JonathanNathan

            Isn’t that stuff supposed to be handled via garnishments, or through the state agency, in situations like that? I feel like that’s how we did it in Kansas when I worked for SRS.

          • Joel

            You mean “If an abuser can send a check, they can find their victim.” Correct? Nothing suggests males are the only ones capable of abuse. I’m guessing Erin Pizzey is somewhat of an anti-christ in your line of work, am I right?

          • JonathanNathan

            I don’t think anyone would call her an anti-Christ, but she’s definitely incorrect and has never backed up her claims that most domestic violence is reciprocal with any credible, peer-reviewed research. She basically just says it’s true because her mother was abusive. Yes, women can be violent and abusive. No, it’s not nearly as frequent. Next.

        • JonathanNathan

          Oh, it was E3? Not shocked. Video games are like the intersection of creepy emotionally stunted nerds and creepy emotionally stunted bros.

          • dashed

            Yeah let’s just ignore all the women who play so we can resort to cliche stereotypes. Next you’ll tell us anyone who plays sports is a meathead and a bully.

          • JonathanNathan

            Ignore all the women who play? Where do you think the stereotype comes from? It comes from women who play video games and can’t stand the dudes that play.

          • dashed

            There’s millions of people games of course some are going to be assholes, just like some sports fans violently attack people (see British Soccer Hooligans).

          • JonathanNathan

            The difference is that when people try to talk about gender issues in sports, the entire fan culture doesn’t threaten to rape or murder them. (See Anita Sarkeesian.)

          • dashed

            So some trolls on youtube represent the entire fan culture? Come on there were others who donated to her campaign specifically to spite the trolls.

          • Aimee

            I have to disagree with you here, Jonathan. Just because you’re seeing a bunch of very vocal jackasses doesn’t mean that all gamers are that way. As you said it’s a stereotype, and I thought we were trying to move past those.

            Personally, some of my closest friends are gamer guys and they’re respectful towards women. Even my fiance is one and he’s the sweetest, most considerate and gentle man I’ve ever met. Sure he curses up a storm while he’s playing, but when he puts the game down he’s incredibly loving and kind.

            Please stop speaking in stereotypes, you’re doing yourself no good by doing so.

        • http://www.amandafarough.com/ Amanda F.

          Oh honey, that makes me so sad. E3 is a stiff pain in the you-know-where but knowing that your experience was that awful puts an arrow in my heart.

          I’m hugging you digitally right now, as a past E3 attendee and ex-game journalist. <3

          • dashed

            So does anyone else call it rape con? Does it have a groping problem?

        • dashed

          Who else besides you has dubbed it rape con? No seriously I tried google and I can’t find anyone else.

  • John

    This is by far one of the dumbest things I’ve seen on the net. you shouldn’t be able to call your self a man with the shit your saying. Rape is not as big as you make it out to be and women should stop putting them selfs in positions to get raped IE the Two football players in ohio she said she would fuck them and she did then a picture got out and then OMG I was raped bullshit two young mens lives are ruined because some girl was drunk and fuck two guys. and good job posting ryan gosling pictures thru out this way to be a feminist man. your a joke people who think like you are a joke once again the pussafction of your nation before our eyes please die in a grease fire

    • JonathanNathan

      Awwwww…you gonna cry there little fella?

      • John

        I’m just stating that your a fag

        • JonathanNathan

          You seem awful worked up li’l buddy.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Christine-Moore/590370150 Christine Moore

      People like John here make me sick. How many women have you raped John? I’m guessing a lot, because you don’t seem to have a problem with rape, at all. Sick, disgusting excuse for a man.

      • John

        yea never and I’m just saying if your drunk and he’s drunk how can it be rape like in the case of the kids in ohio neither of those three could consent so why are the guys going to jail because they took a drunk picture we all seem to forget what high school was like and I’m not condoning rape I’m just saying women and men like this make it out to seem like everyone women gets raped not the truth. and if you get raped report it but it just makes me sick that sooooo many man are in jail for rapes and murders of women that they didn’t commit when the real rapist and murders are out doing it again maybe we should just take the word of women maybe the police should do there job and dig deeper and find the real guy. but back to my point if your both drunk it can’t be rape because neither of you can consent thats all i was saying

  • Jonathan Vaughn

    1) There is absolutely no moral argument against feminism. Not one.

    Absolutely agree. Everyone deserves equal treatment and it is immoral to stand in the way of equality regardless of who is being oppressed.

    2) The more feminist men there are, the fewer women will get raped. Seriously.

    I agree with the main point but I think you have a pretty loose definition of what constitutes rape/sexual assault. Some of the aforementioned examples I would not consider rape. Having seen the negative effects of loosely thrown around rape allegations and the devastating tolls they take on the falsely accused, this is a pet peeve of mine. Rape is terrible and it is unquestionably one of the worst things you can do to dehumanize a person. I have seen it’s long lasting effects on a person’s mental stability and emotional health. It should be taken seriously. However, broadening the definition to include coercion (and I guess this really depends on how one is coerced) muddies the waters between real rape and false allegations. I see plenty of women turn down obnoxious assholes after hours of persistence. A women can and SHOULD say no if she doesn’t want to have sex. It’s not only within her rights but, in my mind, empowering for her to say “Dude, FUCK OFF.”

    3) When women are in charge of stuff, they do a really good job.

    Absolutely! My favorite bosses have been strong women. They multi-tasked better. They were more compassionate to personal problems. They didn’t take shit from anyone and they were the far more productive than their male counterparts in the same positions. I don’t think that has anything to do with being a woman vs being a man but more towards their individual personalities. Still, women are equally as capable at being in positions of power as men and fulfill their roles equally as well.

    4) When abortion is restricted, people die.

    I think this, like other parts of your article, are slightly exaggerated (maybe not exaggerated but worded dramatically for effect) but the risks of illegal abortions are a serious issue. I don’t think the federal government, or any governing body, has the right to outlaw abortions. The decision to abort should be between the two parental units making the decision. The final decision is the woman’s because it is her body but I will say that the participating father (assuming he is trying to actually be one) should have his opinions and concerns heard.

    5) Oppression doesn’t end until the oppressor stops oppressing.

    When I first read this statement I agreed with it. I thought, well “Duh”. However, much like your second point, I feel you grossly exaggerate what constitutes oppression. If I tell a random woman on the street she is beautiful it’s likely that I’m just being nice. Much like when I tell a guy “Hey man, that shirt is awesome!”. I’m trying to pick up neither the random woman nor the random gentleman. I’ve only attempted to be nice to a stranger and don’t feel it contributes to oppression in the slightest. The “You should smile.” line agitates me to now end because it is extremely presumptuous. However, I have been told by women on multiple occasions that “You should smile more!”. I don’t think it’s necessarily a sexist issue as an issue of pomposity. I have no idea why that girl isn’t smiling. Maybe her mom died. Maybe she just found out she had cancer. The same could be said when those women told me to smile. They had no idea why I was sad but they felt the need to tell me that I should be smiling. Finally we get to the “friend zone” issue. It is in no way oppressing women by being upset about the “friend zone”. When you approach someone with romantic intent and you are rebuffed it is disheartening. It is absolutely within her right to tell you no because she doesn’t owe you anything but complaining about it isn’t oppression. The man is, understandably, upset that he approached a woman with romantic intent and all she wanted was platonic friendship. This happens to both sexes though and they both complain about it, so I don’t think it constitutes oppression.

    Overall I enjoyed reading your article. It raised some interesting intellectual discussion between my wife and I as to what constitutes oppression in modern society. So thank you for that! I think equality is one of the most important issues out there. Everyone deserves the same chance of happiness and success without being put down or objectified (I will agree this happens to women WAY too often). It’s unfortunate that other commenters with opposing viewpoints resort to ad hominem attacks rather than simply discussing the issue. I hope you can remain civil when discussing your view points as to expose them for the childish individuals that they are and I look forward to reading your response.

    • JonathanNathan

      “Some of the aforementioned examples I would not consider rape.”–Those of us who’ve worked in the field disagree with you.

      “However, broadening the definition to include coercion (and I guess this really depends on how one is coerced) muddies the waters between real rape and false allegations.”–It actually clears them up. Coercion is an area that is frequently talked about as “a gray area” or “a fine line.” It’s not. It’s rape. Simple.

      “If I tell a random woman on the street she is beautiful it’s likely that I’m just being nice.”–Doesn’t matter. The context of her life is what makes it a contribution to a culture of oppression.

      “Finally we get to the “friend zone” issue. It is in no way oppressing women by being upset about the “friend zone”. When you approach someone with romantic intent and you are rebuffed it is disheartening.”–You know what else is disheartening? The feeling–which most women have–that the vast majority of men who try to get to know them have absolutely no interest in knowing them as friends and only want to fuck them. THAT is disheartening. You know what else is disheartening? The knowledge that it’s going to take me three times as long to develop a strong personal friendship with a woman because the entire time, she’s waiting for the other shoe to drop, expecting me to try to make a move, so she has to keep me at arm’s length that much longer. That is fucking disheartening.

      “The man is, understandably, upset that he approached a woman with romantic intent and all she wanted was platonic friendship.”–But when you say that, it feels like you’re essentially saying, “Good God, who would want to be FRIENDS WITH A WOMAN, right? Icky.” And I know that’s not what you’re saying, but I imagine you can understand why it might come off that way. The only difference between the two forms of relationship is that in one of them, you get to have sex. It’s not a big deal. Be friends with the gal and go out and have sex with other people. It’s fine.

      • Terrier Hockey

        You know what’s also sexist? Being instantly accused of only wanting to have sex with women and not wanting friendship is sexist. You know what is also disheartening? It is saying that every man just wants to have sex with any woman he talks to. How is any different that men assuming women want it because of the way they dress? At least people can control how they dress, they can’t control what sex they are.

        • JonathanNathan

          “Being instantly accused of only wanting to have sex with women and not wanting friendship is sexist.”–If someone is accusing you of that, perhaps you should stop saying things like “the best way to get to know a girl is to take her out on a date.” Also, probably don’t say things like “friendzoned.”

          “It is saying that every man just wants to have sex with any woman he talks to.”–I don’t think I said that. It wouldn’t make much sense for me to say that, on account of I’m a man.

          “How is any different that men assuming women want it because of the way they dress?”–You’re right, it’s so rough. It’s almost as bad as living in constant fear of being raped.

  • Jon Capricci
    • JonathanNathan

      32 Signs That Entitled, Whiny Men Are Losing A Small Amount of Their Undeserved Privilege.

      • Jon Capricci

        way to debunk that and you and this website are very radical, not everyone agrees with you twerp

        • JonathanNathan

          It’s true. Not everyone agrees with me. But the people who are correct do.

          • Jon Capricci

            Idiotic statement

          • JonathanNathan

            Everyone’s a critic.

  • Kate

    Well, I think this is pretty much a great article and have been trying to spread it around. And I’ll admit, I actually sat here and read ALL of the comments, and guys like Derek and some of the others scare the heck out of me.

    For anyone asking “why can’t I compliment a woman?” that isn’t the point. I love compliments. But because we live in a culture in which the objectification of women runs rampant and rape is a thing that happens, I automatically think “why is he saying that to me?” and “do I need to start carrying mace?” or “oh god how close to my car am I?” or “what if he follows me?” or “what if he gets mad at me for ignoring me?” I’m willing to bet not a single man that hears a woman say “oh hey nice shirt!” has thought “oh god what if she won’t leave me alone?”

    Does this suck? A lot. It also sucks to sit in a college orientation imagining the scenarios in which I could be raped or assaulted, because of the high, high likelihood that it could happen. There are a lot of great guys out there that just want to tell me I’m pretty, but because of the culture we live in, I will always be suspect of a stranger’s motives. It sucks, and it sucks for men too because this is a culture that assumes you can’t control yourselves, so instead it teaches women to police the matter. That isn’t fair. You wouldn’t say “hey, that sucks that he got murdered but he shouldn’t have slept at a friend’s house.” But you will say, “hey, sucks that she got raped but she shouldn’t have passed out on the couch.”

    We need more male feminists.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Christine-Moore/590370150 Christine Moore

    Fantastic article, I hope other men take this advice to heart.

  • Lucinda

    I really, really wish there were more men like you out there. Seriously. Thank you for a well-written, intelligent article on feminism, and why, really, everyone should be a feminist.

    So many of my male friends (and some female ones) are so afraid to self-identify as feminists because of the lies and caricatures they’ve been fed by…well, pretty much everyone except feminists! I don’t blame them for being afraid, but I was starting to think that there were not many courageous people left out there as concerns women’s rights.

    Thank you for proving that there still are some out there.
    ~L~

    • JonathanNathan

      Well show your friends–male and female–this article, and tell them Jonathan Nathan says feminists kick ass.

  • Xen0m0rpH

    What a load of crock.

    I’d rather get a trepanation.

    • JonathanNathan

      What I love about this comment is that it expresses such a cogent, thought-out viewpoint.

      • sway

        As opposed to your constant ad-hominem attacks and legendary argument points such as:

        “You should be a feminist because you should fucking be a feminist.”

        • JonathanNathan

          Of course, the difference there is that sentence was accompanied by 1600+ words explaining why.

      • Xen0m0rpH

        I used about as many brain cells as the author did.

        I figured I would comment in kind.

        • JonathanNathan

          Of course you realize that you didn’t. Because I presented a series of actual arguments, none of which you responded to. I doubt you even actually read it.

          • Xen0m0rpH

            1)Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.

            Note the part about women.
            This is the key base of the word Feminism.
            It’s about women and their political and social struggles-not men.

            2)Highly debatable since it is not Feminists who seek to equalize, but to either drag men down or bring women up (depending on the circumstance) to be equal with men.
            While I do agree we are all human here, Feminists have woman’s status in mind.

            It is Egalitarians that will respect both men and women-as women are not the only target of rape, violence, and other negative aspects of society.

            While men can be Feminist, in the end it would benefit them-and their female counterparts-to be Egalitarians, as they keep both sexes in mind.

            3)Women are not always the best option for leaders or managers.
            This does not mean they are not qualified to be leaders or managers, merely that you-nor anyone else- shouldn’t lie and say that when they’re in charge things go well.
            Because that is not always the case.

            4)I do agree that when abortion is restricted that people die.
            But I would say that it needs to be limited, especially since it should not be a replacement for birth control or any derivatives.

            5)While true, not every case of someone getting their ‘feewings hurt’ is a case of offense. Some people have an obtuse world view-and when it comes to Feminists, they seem to suffer from an extreme case of Attention Whore Syndrome;Where if it’s not about women/minorities, then it’s offensive.

            There are things out in the world that could be better, but solely focusing on one half of the problem and ignoring the other half (because they’re the ‘ones in power’, or what ever kind of excuse you’d like to give) does not make a dialog and no recompense can be had because you will eventually just shift all the power to the other side and end up in a reversal of dichotomies.

          • JonathanNathan

            “It’s about women and their political and social struggles-not men.”–Yeah, women are the ones who lack equal rights and opportunities. But that hardly means men can’t or shouldn’t participate. I’m straight but I still believe in gay rights. I’m white but I believe in racial equality. I’m middle-class but I don’t want to eat the poor.

            “Because that is not always the case.”–I didn’t say it was.

            “While true, not every case of someone getting their ‘feewings hurt’ is a case of offense.”–That’s very easy for a straight white man to say.

            “you will eventually just shift all the power to the other side and end up in a reversal of dichotomies.”–I really don’t think we’re in any danger of having that happen.

          • Xen0m0rpH

            ‘That’s very easy for a straight white man to say.’- Yea, cute. First, who says I’m white? Second, even if I was I’ve always been an outcast; I’ve got just as much say as any ‘unprivileged’ person.

            ‘I really don’t think we’re in any danger of having that happen.’- Have you seen Sweden lately?

          • JonathanNathan

            “First, who says I’m white?”–Everything about the way you talk about these issues. I guess if I had to put a finger on it, I’d call it “whiny entitlement”?

            “Second, even if I was I’ve always been an outcast; I’ve got just as much say as any ‘unprivileged’ person.”–Buddy, the fact that you got a swirly once in high school really doesn’t compare to what people of color go through, what women go through, what gay people go through.

            “Have you seen Sweden lately?”–I can’t say as I make a lot of trips to Sweden, no. Is something the matter with Sweden?

          • Xen0m0rpH

            Well Sweden is thinking about making it illegal to pee standing up as the women there find it oppressive.

            Also, I’m more Native American than anything.

            And it seems like you’re willing to trivialize anyone’s experiences if they aren’t part of your ‘fringe groups’ when normal people get just as much shit as anyone else.
            It’s remarkable the willful ignorance.

          • Aimee

            As someone living in Sweden, instead of mocking it I’d think you’d hold it up as a wonderful example of Egalitarianism.

            Take for example maternity leave. In the US, only women get leave from work when they have a baby. In Sweden, both the mother AND father get leave to take care of the newborn. That is something that has moved in favor of men and yet is an equalizer.

            Another example would be the ditching of traditional gender roles when it comes to children’s toys. Recently there was a big hullabaloo in conservative media in the US because a Swedish toy catalog came out that had cooking sets for boys and toy guns for girls, etc. How horrendous! ..yet very equal.

          • JonathanNathan

            Sweden is not “thinking about” doing that. A few extremists brought it up and it’s not happening.

            “normal people get just as much shit as anyone else.”–Because women and people of color aren’t normal people?

            “just as much shit as anyone else.”–Yeah, it’s real hard to be a straight white guy in this country. All the privilege…how do we get through the day?

  • DesertLL

    Funny how when some men read about feminism, they ask where all the evidence for these claims are. And no woman has ever needed to. Isn’t that interesting? Really good article. If all men agreed with you, we’d live in a better world for everyone.

  • nkiflemar

    I love Ryan Gossling even more! He loves dogs and is a feminist…what more could a woman want. Eva, marry this dude!

  • Gordon

    Hi Jonathan. Your article is interesting, yet you paint an overly generic picture of men as ravenous, uncontrollable pigs and women as innocent, more intelligent beings. You talk of how screwed up men are in positions of leadership, yet you neglect to mention good leadership in men: Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King Jr., etc. Also, let’s not forget that women are also capable of being ruthless tyrants: don’t forget about Queen Mary I of England, Irma Ida Ilse Grese who ran the women’s section of Auschwitz, Queen Isabella of Spain, and countless others who committed unspeakable atrocities. If you believe that women are not under the same sinful nature that men are, then you are severely mislead. Calling ourselves feminists would be unbalanced, because we should be fighting for humans, period. The moment you begin to build a “shrine” to a group of people and uplift above others a certain group of people, you instantly lose what you were fighting for…which is equality. It is the same with racial issues, either everyone is equal, or everyone is not. But the article above places women on a higher pedestal than men, which is equally as wrong as the reverse. Also, I have a question regarding whether you REALLY are a true feminist. If you were a true feminist, you would respect ALL women’s rights, yet you made clear that you support the abortion of women that have not been born. Right so far? So, assuming the lack of abortion would not kill the mother, what about the rights of the babies/girls/future women that are killed everyday in the name of “choice”? I believe in equality for people, even those who are not able to make their own voice heard. If you are a true feminist, you will fight for the rights of even the unborn women.

    • JonathanNathan

      “yet you paint an overly generic picture of men as ravenous, uncontrollable pigs and women as innocent, more intelligent beings.”–I think you’re commenting on a different article from the one you read, because this one doesn’t do that. I call attention to certain behaviors in which men engage, behaviors which are problematic even if men don’t intend them to be.

      “You talk of how screwed up men are in positions of leadership”–Nope, I didn’t say that at all.

      “If you believe that women are not under the same sinful nature that men are”–Oh great, you’re gonna try to talk to me about accepting Jesus into my heart, right?

      “Calling ourselves feminists would be unbalanced, because we should be fighting for humans, period.”–Sure, buddy. Let’s debate the meaning of a word instead of focusing on the tough issues. If you’d read a single thing I wrote, you’d know that feminism IS fighting for humans, period.

      “But the article above places women on a higher pedestal than men, which is equally as wrong as the reverse.”–No it doesn’t. Stop making shit up.

      “If you were a true feminist, you would respect ALL women’s rights, yet you made clear that you support the abortion of women that have not been born.”–I support a woman’s right to choose over a cluster of cells which is not legally or biologically alive, yes.

      “So, assuming the lack of abortion would not kill the mother, what about the rights of the babies/girls/future women that are killed everyday in the name of “choice”?”–You can’t kill something that isn’t alive. Next.

  • Jonathan Taylor

    How to be a Feminist male:

    1. Accept that you must apologize for your own existence. Apologize every day for the original sin of being born male.
    2. Never blame or stereotype women alongside men. Instead, always blame and negatively stereotype men. Call stereotyping women sexism. Label stereotyping men “enlightenment.”
    3. Assume (erroneously) that Feminists represent all women.
    4. Accept discrimination and double standards advocated by Feminists in ways Feminists would never accept in reverse.

    I could go on, but that will do for now.

    • JonathanNathan

      How to be a big whiny douchebag: ask Jonathan Taylor, he knows all about it.

      • Jonathan Taylor

        No whining at all – I’m not asking you to do anything different. If you wish to embrace the “four point plan” listed above, more power to you. If that’s what you call equality, far be it from me to stop you.

        I will, however, point out the obvious. But don’t expect me to respond too much to YOUR whining when I do. Good day :)

        • JonathanNathan

          Nah, you’re pretty whiny.

      • daboys1215

        How to be a crybaby: ask a feminist.

        • JonathanNathan

          You’re just pissed that nobody wants to fuck you because you’re some weird old guy obsessed with All My Children: http://www.dailymotion.com/daboys1215#video=xy3rvb

          • daboys1215

            Typical feminazi. can’t read nor do research. I’m probably younger than you old man.

          • JonathanNathan

            You watch All My Children. I doubt you’re younger than me.

          • daboys1215

            You have a weird fascination with a tv show that doesn’t exist and has nothing to do with me.

          • JonathanNathan

            So you just happen to also have the username daboys1215? Small world.

          • daboys1215

            Newsflash: The internet is a big place. I guess you never bothered to figure that one out. Not surprising.

  • Glial

    I would like to make the counter argument that if equality were to happen, women would be required to drafted in the army (just like men). Although there are blatant areas where it seems that women are discriminated against, there are areas where men seem to get the “short-end-of-the-stick.” ie: Drafting in the military, male nursing, child custody, and more severe corporal punishment (just to name a few).

  • Rebecca Leloudis

    This was beautifully written, funny, and has a great message. I’ve read a lot of pro-feminism articles on the interwebz and this one was particularly striking–almost brought me to tears. It’s great to see that the fight against gender inequality isn’t being fought by women alone.

    Keep on doin’ you, and pay no mind to the people trying to drag this article down. They’re not aware of how fallible and lacking in logic their arguments are.

    • JonathanNathan

      I am having so much fun messing with the hate-commenters, Rebecca. They have no idea how much fun I’m having.

      • Alex

        Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I am a “hate commenter”.

        • JonathanNathan

          No, but the fact that you don’t think women are human beings does.

          • Alex

            One of the only people who I truly love and trust in my life is my mom. My opinions are far more complex than you have made them out to be.

          • JonathanNathan

            If only you could show as much respect for other women as you do for your mom.

          • Equality

            Jonathan you are such a rude son of a bitch. Alex is a better man than you’ll ever be. You’re a condescending piece of shit. The other posters have more patience than I thought humanly possible but after reading you insult all these people I can’t even begin to fathom how they have the power to not just call you what you are. A dumb condescending and sarcastic fuckwad. At no point does Alex say he or imply he thinks women aren’t human beings. I pray you don’t have kids.

          • JonathanNathan

            “you are such a rude son of a bitch.”–Well that’s just a hell of a sentence right there.

            “You’re a condescending piece of shit.”–But you people make it so easy to condescend. I can’t help being right.

            “At no point does Alex say he or imply he thinks women aren’t human beings.”–If the boot fits…

            “I pray you don’t have kids.”–Me too. Look at us! We’re agreeing on things! Maybe we could become pen pals!

  • Guest

    Started out strong and then devolved into the typical “EVERYTHING IS OPPRESSION” that so many of these articles fall into. Sorry no, me telling a girl she’s beautiful is not oppression. Not even if I want to hit on her without knowing anything about her. It’s her choice to respond.

    • JonathanNathan

      And it’s your choice to be a creepy asshole who contributes to a culture that makes women extremely uncomfortable and afraid. And clearly you exercise that choice.

  • Aimee

    Let me first say that I do not agree with you politically based on what I have read in this article alone, but I am willing to set that aside and focus on our common ground because of the greater ideals you are trying to promote, so good job on this article!

    There really are so many out there, men and women alike, who would benefit from learning more about the definitions of rape. Not only the side of the story you told where less would happen if men were more aware, but I think that women would benefit a great deal from it. There are so many out there who are hurting because they have been wronged in this manner but don’t know how to put a name to it so they do not seek help. I am not suggesting that there be a mass reporting to the police of every sexual misdeed, but if we were all better educated, the women who were uncomfortable going to the police could at least know what they were dealing with and could seek some counseling for their sexual wounds.

    I was one of those women. I was in a marriage that lasted for two years with a man who was emotionally, verbally, and sexually abusive, but I didn’t realize how bad it really was until months after I had gotten free of him. I know I’ll be accused of seeking revenge over a failed marriage by accusing my ex-husband of marital rape, so let me say up front that I never have brought charges against him. In fact, I have only told a very few of my closest friends and family members about what I went through other than my anonymous internet posts which don’t even give either of our real first names out. I do not want this to come back to him because, honestly, I’m still terrified of him deep down and do not want to ever have to be in the same room with him again, including a court room. But, back to my original point, I did not even know that marital rape was possible even while it was happening to me, because I assumed that a ring on the finger meant sexual consent. He used to pressure me into it, making me feel like a terrible wife if I didn’t give in, and then leave me in pain afterwards because he was too eager and inconsiderate.

    Ladies, just because he’s your husband doesn’t mean that you owe it to him, please please please keep this in mind. It should be an act done in love, not out of guilt or pressure or because he pays the bills, if that is the case.

    Also, on another note, yes I do agree that it is a form of oppression to be randomly complemented by strangers I’ve never met or to be told to smile, since there seem to be a lot of men arguing over how women feel about this. I know I cannot claim to speak for all women, but in my personal experience it is incredibly insulting to be told to smile by random men and I got that a lot when I used to work as a cashier. I was already doing my best to smile for the customers because that’s just expected from people who work retail and puts the customers at ease, so it was like, really? I owe you a bigger smile than the one I’m forcing on my face already for your sake? I’m here to ring up your purchase, not to be some pretty face for you to stare at, please let me do my job without making this any more awkward. And yes compliments from random strangers is totally creepy. I never know how to respond and I wonder what they’re wanting in return for it. If the guy is someone I see around every day but haven’t ever talked to and they’re just trying to start up a conversation, I’ll give them a pass, smile and thank them and ask them how they’re doing, introduce myself because I know I’ll see them again and maybe we’ll eventually become friends. But some random dude passing me by on the street somehow creeps me out. Maybe it’s the female intuition kicking in, I’m not entirely sure because a lot of it seems to be in the delivery.

    And even though I am in my 20s and physically fit, if you see me scantily clad, it’s because it’s a hot day and I have eczema and am trying hard not to get a breakout that’ll cause me to itch all night and get no sleep, not because I’m trying to show off. Sleep and comfort trump modesty, sad to say, when it comes to what I wear, and getting comments made when I dress like that makes me want to go crawl in a hole to hide. I’m already self-conscious enough about it, please don’t assume I’m trying to get sexual attention, and I can’t be the only woman in this situation. I’m sure that there are some out there who do dress in skimpy clothing for sexual attention, but your safer bet is probably to assume the contrary unless she’s winking and making eyes at you.

    I’m not trying to make men feel bad, I’m trying to give all the guys out there some helpful pointers so that girls they’re interested don’t immediately label them as creeps, what since there seem to be a lot of clueless guys out there. I’m rooting for you good ones, honestly! Education and enlightenment would save people of all genders a lot of heartache.

  • Jacob Kelly

    I agree completely – except there is a problem (which you immediately acknowledge in the first paragraph) as to why men frequently react against feminism. Its because (being blunt) feminism is a combative term, with the exact definition of feminism being ‘the advancement of feminine rights and ideology’. This sounds fine, until you realise that it conveniently ignores ‘masculine rights and ideology’. Whilst it is easy to pass this off as ‘fuck the patriarchy’ – with western nations that have already gone thru second and third wave feminism combined with a sensationalist media, we have men that simply cannot find their place in society due to lost identity, and society telling us that our sexuality cannot be trusted. Put this on top of dramatically falling rates of men going into teaching and other positions of trust involving minors – and you can see the huge issues starting to creep up; partly responsible by third-wave feminisms focus on sexual politics in the early 00′s.

    However, the point I’m trying to convey is I long ago stopped calling myself a feminist and starting calling myself an equalist. The term has no jingo, no approved definition – but I personally like to style it as ‘the advancement of equal rights for all’. I don’t care what you have between your legs, what colour your skin is, or what sky wizard you subscribe to – I’m going to defend your rights to do it without being persecuted – and without detriment to any other societal group.

    • JonathanNathan

      So in other words, you DON’T agree completely. You actually significantly disagree, and subtly promote MRA bullshit in the guise of “equality.”

      • Jacob Kelly

        Feel free to follow up on me, I’ve never been directly involved in any MRA organisation. And I agree with each of your dot points (well except women do well in leadership positions – people who have the skills to lead people do well in leadership positions). But if we are to live in a truly equal world, we need to shed ourselves from standing up only for certain sects and people – and more importantly, realising that concensus and shedding labels as to who is what, and simply realising we are just people – people who deserve each others love and to work towards the common good rather than recrimination.

        • JonathanNathan

          If you think feminism is about “standing up only for certain sects and people,” then you didn’t read the article.

          • sway

            You defining feminism and him observing what it is with his own eyes are two different things. I can read the definition out of a dictionary. I can also observe how it behaves in reality and draw my own conclusion.

          • JonathanNathan

            No, you actually don’t get to just make up definitions for words.

          • sway

            So it’s just as simple as changing the goals and tenets of an ideology, but since the dictionary definition describes the original, we should believe that isn’t dangerous?

            That would be like somebody writing “good, caring, charitable organization” as the definition for white supremacist, but when they lynch and kill minorities, someone is allowed to say “but the dictionary says they are awesome!”

            I repeat: I know what the definition of feminism is, and I’ve witnessed what the latest wave actually stands for: superiority, not equality.

          • JonathanNathan

            Nope, that’s not what the latest wave “actually stands for.” You’re making shit up because you don’t get laid enough or something.

  • Jean Nolte

    Thank you for writing this. It needs to be said often.

    For anyone in the comments who might be confused about what behaviors constitute “equal” or “fair,” or even appropriate, I suggest the following litmus test: would you do the same to a man? Seriously. In a world full of strangers, would you call out to a man that he’s handsome, that his hair looks nice, that his outfit really looks great today, that he’d look better if he smiled? Would you use another drink to try to convince an interesting stranger to spend more time with you because you, what, really enjoyed the conversation? Would you ask a man what his plans are for work after the baby is born? If you do not know a person well enough to have established a personal rapport with them, then the gender test should serve nicely as a boundary measure for appropriate behavior.

    Please don’t take this as snark, btw. It seems that some people may be genuinely confused about what constitutes appropriate behavior vs. behavior that makes you an inadvertent oppressor (read: sexist jerk). I offer this test as a thought experiment so people can understand exactly how uncomfortable catcalls, smarmy bar dudes and tacit sexist assumptions can make women feel. If that’s your goal, then congrats. You’re a jerk. If you’re seriously confused, just imagine saying those words to a guy. That squirmy, creepy feeling you’re getting is seriously what you’re about to make that woman feel.

    • Alex

      Seriously… I would say those things to a guy.

      “Hey man, you work out? You look ripped.”

      I told a guy at a concert the other day that he had a “sick” t shirt and mohawk.

      Maybe its because Ive lived a long time in Greece, but asking a guy those kinds of questions would not seem awkward at all.

      • JonathanNathan

        “Hey man, you work out? You look ripped.”–Say that to a guy you don’t know in most of America–and certainly in most non-gay bars even here in the Bay Area–and prepare to get your lights knocked out.

        • jorjms

          Do you actually believe that, or is that what you would do?

          I was at a bar the other night and I saw a guy with a great haircut.
          I said “Hey man, great haircut!”
          He said “Thanks man!”
          We did not fight.

          Seriously what reality do you live in that you’re afraid of complimenting another man?

          • JonathanNathan

            Interesting that all the MRAs come out of the woodwork to claim that they all totally compliment other men on their physical appearance all the time, but you never see anyone do it in real life. Could it be that it’s bullshit?

          • jorjms

            Yes, I took time out of my day to lie to an internet stranger about a meaningless social interaction I participated in. I did this to advance my super secret internet agenda of oppressing da wimminz and raising da menz up to never before seen heights of patriarchal rule and privilege. Drat! Now you have deciphered my coded transmissions and revealed my diabolical plan. I’m ruined!

            Or maybe I just told a guy he had a nice haircut.

            Jesus.

  • fred

    Complaining about being ‘friendzoned’ is oppressive?

    No. It’s not.

    The feminist movement of late has done a lot of conflation – of stuff that’s real bad, with stuff that isn’t.

    If I complain that I got ‘friendzoned,’ that’s not a bad thing at all – I wanted to date a girl, and she wanted to be just friends, and it made me sad.

    We’re not allowed to feel bad about being rejected? ‘Cause that’s what complaining about being ‘friendzoned’ is about.

    And the culture doesn’t tell me just that I need to ‘get out there and take what I want.’

    It tells me that I’m lazy and stupid and should do whatever a woman says because I can’t handle my own life without being babied. It tells me that I am unable to communicate, and that I’m not as emotionally aware as women are. It tells me that my masculine qualities are stupid and out of date and undervalued, and, in fact, by definition, offensive.

    It tells me that if I don’t look like Ryan Gosling or Chris Hemsworth, I’m not of value.

    It tells me that if I try to tell an irrational woman that she’s being irrational, I’m being sexist.

    And a lot of that is coming from feminist circles.

    • JonathanNathan

      “No. It’s not.”–Always a great argument from the MRA crowd.

      “If I complain that I got ‘friendzoned,’ that’s not a bad thing at all – I wanted to date a girl, and she wanted to be just friends, and it made me sad.”–Because who the hell would ever want to be FRIENDS WITH A WOMAN. GROSS, RIGHT GUYS?

      “We’re not allowed to feel bad about being rejected? ‘Cause that’s what complaining about being ‘friendzoned’ is about.”–Dude. It happens. Don’t whine about it. Go develop an actual personality and maybe you won’t get “friendzoned” all the time.

      “And the culture doesn’t tell me just that I need to ‘get out there and take what I want.’ It tells me that I’m lazy and stupid and should do whatever a woman says because I can’t handle my own life without being babied. It tells me that I am unable to communicate, and that I’m not as emotionally aware as women are. It tells me that my masculine qualities are stupid and out of date and undervalued, and, in fact, by definition, offensive.”–That’s so weird, because the culture has never once told me that.

      “It tells me that if I don’t look like Ryan Gosling or Chris Hemsworth, I’m not of value.”–No it fucking doesn’t you drama queen.

      • Alex

        “It tells me that if I don’t look like Ryan Gosling or Chris Hemsworth,
        I’m not of value.”–No it fucking doesn’t you drama queen.

        Oh… an ad hominem. You must not like that argument because it doesn’t fit into the narrative that all men (besides feminist men of course) are oppressors who live with great privilege over women.

        How do you explain male anorexia (which accounts for roughly 20-25% of cases regarding anorexia)?

        http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2013/05/05/jay_walker_walking.html

        Do you honestly believe objectification doesn’t go both ways?

        Read some of the comments on this. Why aren’t these women thinking about the personality of the guys pictured?

        http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/hot-guys/hot-guys-shirtless#slide-1

        • JonathanNathan

          “You must not like that argument because it doesn’t fit into the narrative that all men (besides feminist men of course) are oppressors who live with great privilege over women.”–I don’t like the argument because it’s bullshit. It’s a dude trying to act like life’s sooooo hard for him when it’s not. And for what it’s worth, you’ll find that within this very article, I make the following statement: “I don’t feel like an oppressor. But I almost certainly am, because of something I do which has implications I don’t fully grasp.” So don’t act like I’m somehow exonerating men who agree with me. When you live with privilege, you almost always are going to be contributing to oppression in some way.

          “How do you explain male anorexia (which accounts for roughly 20-25% of cases regarding anorexia)?”–A desire for control. Just like female anorexia. Your views on eating disorders are out of date.

          “Do you honestly believe objectification doesn’t go both ways?”–Take a look around you. How many overweight dudes and older dudes do you see at the bars still getting laid? I don’t know what it’s like in Greece, but here in the Bay Area, it’s a lot. But how many overweight women and older women do you see still getting laid? Again, maybe it’s different in Greece, but in the Bay Area, I’d put that figure at about 1% of the number of overweight and/or older men getting laid.

          • sway

            Interesting. So in that last paragraph, you have finally discovered that the two genders find different things sexually attractive? Blasphemy!

          • JonathanNathan

            Nope. You missed the point there.

      • fred

        Yeah, Jonathan, you jump to a lot of conclusions that simply aren’t true, and seem rather defensive. Having read some of your other comments, you’ve got a strawman in your mind that you keep thwapping at, without engaging with what folks have actually said.

        I love being friends with women. I have dozens and dozens of female friends. They’re great. Every now and again, there is a woman I’m interested in romantically, and she doesn’t want to pursue a romantic relationship but, rather, a friendship. That’s called the ‘friendzone.’

        Vice versa is more often true.

        Because I use the word ‘friendzone’ to describe a rare social circumstance I find myself in does not in any way mean that I find being friends with women ‘gross.’

        I’m not the kind of person you think I am, which is part of the problem here – seems like your conception of social reality is largely based on hasty generalizations…

        Yes, the culture Does tell me all of the things I laid out for you. Some of it comes from pop culture (you need to be hot / massively muscular as a man). There’s a reason I downed weight-gainer and peanut butter every night when I was in highschool. I was skinny. The culture tells us that being skinny as a man makes us of lesser value. To the same extent and with the same fervor that it tells women the opposite? No. But I never claimed that.

        Some of it comes from extremist feminists [generally professors] who claim all men are lazy, or that all heterosexual sex is rape, etc., and it seeps into the zeitgeist (or mixes in with and enhances the ‘guy dumb, girl smart’ stereotypes… I mean, seriously, have you ever Seen a sitcom or a commercial?)

        Yes, I recognize that most feminists, like myself, are smart enough to recognize that all heterosexual sex is not rape.

        And you’re not quite that far out on the limb. But, on the continuum, you’re definitely too far out on that branch. ‘Bout halfway across.

        When you make ‘being a feminist’ equate to things like ‘don’t take girls out on dates’ and ‘don’t use the word friendzone’ and ‘don’t make dirty jokes,’ and ‘don’t tell a woman she’s beautiful,’ and ‘don’t hit on girls at bars,’ you’re sullying the word.

        I just think that the real work of seeking and protecting equal rights is harmed when things like using the word ‘friendzone’ and asking girls out on dates get labeled as sexist and wrong.

        YMMV, but YMIW

        • JonathanNathan

          “The culture tells us that being skinny as a man makes us of lesser value.”–You must not be watching the same MTV and VH1 as everybody else.

          “I mean, seriously, have you ever Seen a sitcom or a commercial?”–A commercial…a commercial…oh, like all the ones that portray women as objects? And let me see, sitcom, sitcom, sitcom…Two and a Half Men! Which portrays women as objects devoid of personality!

          “When you make ‘being a feminist’ equate to things like ‘don’t take girls out on dates’”–Yeah, I didn’t say that.

          “and ‘don’t make dirty jokes,’”–Didn’t say that either.

          “and ‘don’t hit on girls at bars,’”–I didn’t even say that, although you’re getting close.

  • The Pirate

    My girlfriend loves to be choked during sex. She is a feminist.

    • JonathanNathan

      What’s your point? Are we just exchanging two-part non-sequitur observations about our friends and acquaintances? OK, here’s mine: My roommate likes Led Zeppelin. He has a beard.

      Your turn!

  • Jamiep

    If a woman is drinking alcohol of her own volition and decides to have sex with someone of her own volition then the person having sex with her is not raping her.
    If a woman refuses to have sex then changes her mind then that is similarly not rape, unless the situation could be considered duress e.g. blackmail or being threatened with violence.

    Shouldn’t feminism be about treating women as though they have agency? Instead of this paternalistic, condescending attitude that women are not responsible for their decisions as though they’re infants or mentally handicapped.

    If a woman or a man decides to drive home while drunk, she is responsible for that decision and will held as such if she is caught. People should be held accountable for things they decide to do while drunk.
    If a woman or a man say “no, I don’t want to have sex right now” then changes their mind when their partner says that they’re a frigid bitch or not a real man, they have categorically not been raped. The person who said that is far from pleasant, but they have not forced the other person to do anything under threat of violence or blackmail or some other illegal action.

    Or I don’t know. Maybe the law works completely differently and I should stop trying to apply common sense and moral reasoning.

    • Aimee

      It really depends where you are at what legally classifies as rape or not. What this article seems to be saying overall is that it is a good idea to familiarize yourself with what does and does not constitute rape so that you do not find yourself guilty of it. What he says as examples here might be legally considered rape in one state and not another, so it is a good idea to become familiar with your local laws on the matter.

    • sway
    • JonathanNathan

      “Shouldn’t feminism be about treating women as though they have agency? Instead of this paternalistic, condescending attitude that women are not responsible for their decisions as though they’re infants or mentally handicapped.”–Misogyny in the guise of feminism. Clever, but I’ve seen it before. The thing is, if a woman–or a man, for that matter–is so intoxicated as to be unable to make anything close to a rational decision about sex, to have sex with her is taking advantage. Now the law–and most everyone else–agrees that if both parties are roughly intoxicated to the same degree, it isn’t rape. But if I’m stone-sober and she’s blackout drunk, you cannot possible believe that for me to have sex with her is appropriate.

      Further, you seem to think that pressure/coercion can only take one form. You’re wrong. This is why people talk about rape culture, because there is a backdrop for all social encounters. Pressure, even a threat of violence, does not have to be explicit.

      • Jamiep

        Misogyny, or considering women with enough respect to believe that they can be responsible for their decisions? I think the latter.

        If a person is black out drunk then they aren’t conscious. Obviously doing things to a person who is unconscious and semi-conscious is and isn’t in any position to react is rape. But when a person is drunk, or even very drunk and they make a decision to have sex with someone then they should be held responsible for that decision. A drunk person is perfectly capable of thinking “I want to screw that person’s brains out” then taking action to ensure that outcome. That drunk person has not been raped if he or she is successful.
        Whether you think that the above scenario is appropriate or not is up to you. “Appropriate” is a word I would use when talking about whether a 45 year old should be dating a 25 year old. To use the question of appropriateness interchangeably with the question or whether or not someone has been raped is not acceptable. They are different questions.

        I don’t think that only one set of circumstances can be considered duress. Violence, threat of violence, blackmail, threat of some other illegal activity…
        Saying something like “why are you such a prude?” does not, of itself, constitute duress. It’s undoubtedly a rude, disreputable thing to say, but if you say it and the person you say it to then decides to have sex with you, you have not raped them.

        • JonathanNathan

          You’re obviously unwilling to hear anything that challenges your male privilege and asks you to confront any difficult realities which might make you examine your own behavior.

          • Jamiep

            On the contrary. Men over women, and women have advantages over men in other ways.
            I’m willing to hear anything but it has to stand to logic and reason or be supported by evidence before I agree with it.
            I wonder if this also means that I must hate women.

          • JonathanNathan

            You have decided that your definitions of rape, consent, and coercion are the only ones that matter. Why would I bother trying to convince you when you’re so obviously unwilling to listen?

        • Aimee

          What does and does not constitute illegal coercion does vary depending on local laws. If anything, you should look them up to find your answers as to what you can and cannot do to a woman. For example, my ex-husband would hold over my head that it was my duty as a wife and would also become intolerably dramatic and depressed and make life miserable for me if I didn’t give in to his wishes even though he was a most inconsiderate lover and would leave me in pain (and no, not a good kind). In some states, this is considered marital rape. In others, it isn’t. How it makes sense that it is illegal in one state and not another, I have no clue, but obviously some places think that coercion is rape for more than just threat of bodily harm. I really do recommend that you look up your local laws on the matter for your own sake.

  • sway

    “You should be a feminist because you should fucking be a feminist.”

    I wasn’t sold until he said this line. Now I’m so in. Where do I get my uniform?

  • MrHand

    Feminism and the sexual revolution have been a disaster for many men.

    Consider this quote:

    “Just like unrestrained economic liberalism, and for similar reasons,
    sexual liberalism produces phenomena of absolute pauperization. Some
    men make love every day; others five or six times in their life, or
    never. Some make love with dozens of women, others with none. It’s
    what’s known as ” the law of the market”. In an economic system where
    unfair dismissal is prohibited, every person more or less manages to
    find their place. In a sexual system where adultery is prohibited, every
    person more or less manages to find their bed mate. In a totally
    liberal economic system certain people accumulate considerable fortunes;
    others stagnate in unemployment and misery. In a totally liberal
    sexual system certain people have a varied and exciting erotic life;
    others are reduced to masturbation and solitude” — Michel Houellebecq

    Feminism/sexual revolution has meant many more men than ever are not getting enough sex, though feminists and liberals like to pretend that today everyone is getting laid more than ever. No, it is NOT in your interest as a male to be a feminist!

    • JonathanNathan

      So what you’re telling me is that because some dudes can’t figure out how to appeal to a woman without a set of social rules FORCING a woman to fuck them, feminism is bad? Jesus, man.

      “Feminism/sexual revolution has meant many more men than ever are not getting enough sex”–I’m sorry it’s been so rough for you. Try developing a personality.

      “No, it is NOT in your interest as a male to be a feminist!”–So because you don’t think you’re getting laid enough, you don’t believe in equal rights and opportunities for all people? You get how psychotic that is, right?

      • MrHand

        We need to find a solution though to the problem of their being so much variance in the amount of mates different men get, because the distribution was more favorable to the average man in the decades before feminism and the sexual revolution. Please read this long article to see the problem explained in detail (it’s written by a racist but it’s a truly illuminating piece):

        http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/sexualutopia.pdf

        • JonathanNathan

          1) The solution is to make yourself appealing! You’re not just entitled to a sexual partner, dude. You have to go out and get one, and the way you do that is by making yourself someone that a woman wants to sleep with. It’s not hard.

          2) “it’s written by a racist”–Shouldn’t that kind of tell you something about the sort of thought patterns necessary to create this kind of idea?

          • MrHand

            2: Ad hominem. Please respond to the content.

            1: I’m speaking about general social trends. The new sexual order defacto reduces a substantial number of men to sexual poverty. The reason is explained lucidly in that article.

          • JonathanNathan

            1. The difference between “sexual poverty” and actual poverty is that actual poverty comes with significant barriers preventing people from escaping it. You know how you get out of “sexual poverty”? Decide to get out of it. It’s incredibly easy. Because there’s actually no such thing as “sexual poverty.” There’s just a bunch of guys who refuse to join the modern era, still stuck in an outmoded mindset which used to teach men, “If you follow these steps, you’ll get laid!” But that’s not the way it works anymore, if indeed it ever did, but these guys would rather mope about how “nice guys finish last” and join PUA/MRA subreddits than actually just do the very simple task of developing a sense of humor and an interesting personality.

            2. I did.

          • MrHand

            The so called “nice guys” who lament online are the victims of the sexual revolution which unleashed the natural sexual agency of women, an agency which so often leads them to be content to be part of a harem to an alpha male in their prime years. These so called “nice guys” would have simply decided to “get out of sexual poverty” if they could. Their lament is real, and is a consequence of society in certain respects returning us to the jungle in sexual matters where so often a few men had harems at the expense of other men. Feminists by and large are afraid to acknowledge this reality they have created but are not bothered it.

          • JonathanNathan

            “the victims of the sexual revolution which unleashed the natural sexual agency of women, an agency which so often leads them to be content to be part of a harem to an alpha male in their prime years.”–Well that’s one of the most horrifyingly incorrect and misogynist things you’ve said so far. A “harem.” Unbelievable.

            “These so called “nice guys” would have simply decided to “get out of sexual poverty” if they could.”–No, they wouldn’t have. Because they haven’t. They lack the imagination to do something as revolutionary as make themselves appealing.

            “Feminists by and large are afraid to acknowledge this reality they have created but are not bothered it.”–Maybe feminists don’t acknowledge it because there’s no evidence that it’s real?

          • MrHand

            “Well that’s one of the most horrifyingly incorrect and misogynist things you’ve said so far. A “harem.” Unbelievable.”

            Outrage is not refutation. It is a reality to today that there is a great variance, as Michel Houellebecq said, between how many and how much sex one man gets and what the other gets, more so than in pre-sexual revolution days where nearly everyone paired off pretty early in their lives. Liberalism and feminism have therefore created a situation where there are more male sexual losers than ever before, by design, because it’s the nature of female sexuality to share top men when those women are in their sexual prime. Feminism, therefore, is not really in the interest of those loser men — or in the interest of the average man who most certainly is not in the top 20% of men who make a killing sexually at the expense of the rest.

          • JonathanNathan

            “It is a reality to today that there is a great variance, as Michel Houellebecq said, between how many and how much sex one man gets and what the other gets, more so than in pre-sexual revolution days where nearly everyone paired off pretty early in their lives.”–First of all, neither you nor Houellebecq adequately proves that assertion. Secondly, there’s actually no evidence to suggest that people “paired off” so neatly at all. In fact, the consensus is that adultery was extremely commonplace, as was rape. You have nostalgia for a time that never existed. Third, according to the National Center for Health Statistics, the average woman has four sexual partners in her lifetime while the average man has seven.

            “Liberalism and feminism have therefore created a situation where there are more male sexual losers than ever before, by design, because it’s the nature of female sexuality to share top men when those women are in their sexual prime.”–Why don’t you just come out and say it: You think all women are whores who just want to be a concubine to a powerful man? You have such a limited understanding of female sexuality, it would be hilarious if you weren’t so terrifyingly real.

            “Feminism, therefore, is not really in the interest of those loser men — or in the interest of the average man who most certainly is not in the top 20% of men who make a killing sexually at the expense of the rest.”–So what you’re saying here is that 80% of men don’t get laid often enough? That’s absolutely absurd. 97% of adult men have had sex with a woman. That’s a statistical fact. And, as mentioned above, the average man has seven sexual partners in his lifetime. Meanwhile, 6,000 weddings happen every day in this country.

            So I’ll say it again: If you’re not getting laid as often as you want to, it’s time to self-examine and figure out why.

          • MrHand

            Yea, the AVERAGE man has sex with 7 women in his lifetime. AVERAGE. If 50 men each sleep with 14 women over a lifetime and 50 other men get nothing, well, the average is 7 women per man!

            The averages haven’t changed. The issue is VARIANCE, and that many young women engage in serial monogamy in their most sexually prime years. Eventually most people might pair off, but many men are sexually deprived in their 20s or 30s by alpha males hoarding prime females. The so called “hookup culture” consists off a large pool of women and a substantially smaller pool of men. Feminism has harmed many men when it comes to sex and relationships.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Yea, the AVERAGE man has sex with 7 women in his lifetime. AVERAGE. If 50 men each sleep with 14 women over a lifetime and 50 other men get nothing, well, the average is 7 women per man!”–First of all, that’s walking back pretty heavily from your ridiculous 80% thing. Second, yeah, you’re correct on your numbers, but you have literally ZERO proof that anything you’re referring to is happening.

            “Eventually most people might pair off, but many men are sexually deprived in their 20s or 30s by alpha males hoarding prime females.”–What a disgusting human being you are. Women are not objects to be hoarded. They’re people, they have feelings, opinions, and agency. And there is absolutely no evidence to support what you’re saying.

            “The so called “hookup culture” consists off a large pool of women and a substantially smaller pool of men.”–No it doesn’t.

            “Feminism has harmed many men when it comes to sex and relationships.”–So what is it, exactly, that makes some men completely undesirable, sexually, in this worldview of yours? What has made them so unfuckable, while other men are getting laid?

          • MrHand

            ” Second, yeah, you’re correct on your numbers, but you have literally ZERO proof that anything you’re referring to is happening.”

            When a man enters a second marriage, the woman is almost always younger than his wife. This is widely known and I’m sure you can google a statistic for it. A whole lot of men get married repeatedly therefore consume more than their fair share of female prime years.

            “What a disgusting human being you are. Women are not objects to be hoarded. They’re people, they have feelings, opinions, and agency.”

            They’re agency often leads them to be content with being part of a rotating harem to a top man. Keep the insults coming asshat.

            “So what is it, exactly, that makes some men completely undesirable,
            sexually, in this worldview of yours? What has made them so unfuckable,
            while other men are getting laid?”

            Alpha males are men who appear strong and socially savvy and dominant and who, by these qualities, instinctively assure women’s evolutionarily developed instincts that they can protect them. However, before feminism and the sexual revolution impacted the culture, women also had to be concerned with beta qualities and look for a mate who would commit to them should children occur. Today, because of easily available birth control and legally mandated child support, women don’t have to take those beta qualities into consideration in their prime years and so are culturally free to only fuck the alphas. It is only when they are in danger of losing their prime years looks (past 28 or so) that they finally settle down for a beta.

            There is also the commonly understood fact that for women that a wedding ring often makes a man more attractive to women, for the fact that he has a woman committed to him tells other women that he must therefore have some desirable qualities. If one man is getting laid and another is not, the former is in a position to capitalize on his success all the more because of this quality of human female psyche. But he couldn’t have before the sexual revolution…now he can.

          • JonathanNathan

            “When a man enters a second marriage, the woman is almost always younger than his wife. This is widely known and I’m sure you can google a statistic for it. A whole lot of men get married repeatedly therefore consume more than their fair share of female prime years.”–Still not proof of your argument.

            “They’re agency often leads them to be content with being part of a rotating harem to a top man.”–You’re not proving this point. You just keep calling women whores without providing any proof of your argument.

            “Alpha males are men who appear strong and socially savvy and dominant and who, by these qualities, instinctively assure women’s evolutionarily developed instincts that they can protect them.”–First of all, those are easy things to pretend to be. “Appear strong and socially savvy”? That’s pretty much every guy after three beers. Second, I must know so many women who don’t understand their own sexuality, because I know a lot of women who are turned off by “alpha males.”

            “It is only when they are in danger of losing their prime years looks (past 28 or so) that they finally settle down for a beta.”–Still waiting for proof of this…

            “There is also the commonly understood fact that for women that a wedding ring often makes a man more attractive”–Oh wow, “the commonly understood fact,” but still no evidence.

          • Aimee

            There’s something that you haven’t taken into consideration at all in your reasoning, and that’s the woman’s side of it. I know there are plenty of women out there who are willing to be with many men, and many men who want that kind of variation in their sexual life. However, the need for sex, so to speak, does not mean that you need to have many different partners. There are still many women out there who want the “fairy tale” stable monogamous relationship and who see men who sleep around as much as they can as players who are not worth their attention. There are also many women out there who do not get any sexual attention at all because they are seen as being unattractive or undesirables. The way I see it, there are probably as many women out there that need some love as there are “nice guys” who are finishing last. Such a shame those “nice guys” aren’t willing to lower their standards and go after girls who are probably very nice but just not supermodels, huh?

            I know I can’t speak for all women, so I won’t even try, but on a personal note, I am one of those women who like stable, monogamous relationships. I think it’s disgusting that there are men out there who want to bag as many women as they can to have in their “harem,” yuck, and I would never ever willingly go out with one of those sleezeballs. I value myself way too highly to give myself to someone who sees me as just another notch in his bedpost. In fact, I am engaged to be married to a real nice guy who treats me very well. He’s thoughtful and funny, and even though neither of us have much money, we’re very happy. We have each only had one other sexual partner, so I guess you could say we’re in sexual poverty, how dreadful, but we’re really quite happy and are hoping to have only each other as partners for the rest of our lives since we do still believe in being faithful.

            Take that however you like or dismiss me altogether, but I think I have a valid point.

          • MrHand

            Nearly every woman gets sexual attention for a period in her life. Women who do not get sexual attention are the bottom of the barrel hideous land-whales. If only it were the case that the six women some guy regularly sleeps with are all in turn each sleeping with 5 other guys. There is no such parity. Anyway, this is a direct way feminism/sexual revolution have screwed over many men who, as you acknowledge, would have had their needs met before the sexual revolution by pairing off early in life with a young woman. Liberals (and Christians for that matter) want men to “man up” and marry over the hill women in their 30s who have ridden the cock carousel and possibly have multiple kids. This is the situation feminism/sexual revolution have created:

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/06/orlando-shaw-father-22-children-14-women_n_3397397.html

            And this sort of thing happens, though not extremely, in many other communities. It de facto means many men won’t be able to form families with women who don’t already have kids.

            The old sexual order benefited the average man at the expense of top 20% males. The new sexual order benefits the top 20% males at the expense of the rest. Consequently, those other guys have an incentive to take issue against the social movements that have created their situation…

          • Aimee

            Those “bottom of the barrel hideous land-whales,” as you not-so-delicately put it, are human beings with feelings that need love just as much as those lonely “good guys” do that you are advocating for. If they truly were good men, they would not just so callously dismiss these good women the way that you have just done. Go grow up.

          • MrHand

            I understand that, but women who fail to receive sexual attention in their prime years are almost always abnormal physically. Nearly every woman receives sexual attention from the ages of 16 to 30…the ones who don’t are physically abnormal in some glaring way. It’s absurd to ask a normal looking guy, who, shall we say, is a “5″ in sex appeal, to date down to a woman who is a 2.

          • Aimee

            Yes, because looks are so very important. Way to show how very shallow you really are. If you ever did meet a woman who was like me, I would sincerely hope that she is able to see you as you really are and turn you down because of your hideous personality.

          • MrHand

            Attraction isn’t a choice. A guy forcing himself to date a woman he finds unattractive is not fair to both parties

          • Kay

            Ahahaha… plenty of women like her exist, but I would hope they have too much self-respect to entertain your delusions.
            Have you ever considered that these “land-whales” also want to get laid? So do we conclude that feminism and the sexual revolution is just bad for unattractive people?
            And the fact that you are comparing FOOD to another human being and their choices… no. Do you seriously want some woman to have sex with you just because she feels socially obligated? Like, are you not even considering that there is a person attached to that vagina? Because if you can’t understand that, you need to get a blow-up doll or something. I’d recommend paying for it, but I pity the prostitute who’d have to deal with someone who can’t even fathom that women are people.

          • MrHand

            “It’s written by a racist” is not engagement, or much of anything really.

          • JonathanNathan

            And that’s not all I said, either.

          • MrHand

            And it’s curious that the best thing those who defend the new sexual order can say to the male sexual paupers is “you’re not entitled to sex” — a fundamental need, perhaps not as vital as food and water to live, but nonetheless something we crave as deeply from the depths of our being and is psychology healthy to have regularly.

          • JonathanNathan

            Yeah, and I crave being independently wealthy from the depths of my being. Doesn’t mean anyone owes me a billion dollars. If I want that money I have to go out and make it happen.

          • MrHand

            See, seeking a billion dollars is not some innate urge evolution has placed in you and your ancestors going back a million years. Saying to the involuntary celibate men which the sexual revolution and feminism have created “Just go out there and get it!” is beyond dismissive and callous, like saying to impoverished people “Just go out there and get food!”

          • JonathanNathan

            It’s completely different and you know it. Real poverty has established barriers that make it all but impossible to escape. “Sexual poverty”? Please. If you can’t get laid in 2013, you need to examine yourself.

  • Wald

    This is just Ryan Gosling porn and nonsense.

    • JonathanNathan

      What a well thought out rejoinder that was.

      • Wald

        Oh shit! You’re a dude! I seriously thought you were a girl.

        • Wald

          So why do you betray your own sex, man?

          • JonathanNathan

            If it’s betraying my own sex to think that women deserve equal opportunities and rights, and to think that women shouldn’t have to be afraid of being raped all the time, then call me Judas.

          • Wald

            I think you really just write articles like to get laid by ingratiating yourself with feminists.

          • JonathanNathan

            Right, because all feminist women have to do all day is trawl the internet for guys who write articles about feminism, and then have sex with them. Do you even think this shit through before you say it?

            Also, you still haven’t explained your opposition to my position, which is, again: that women deserve equal opportunities and rights, and that women shouldn’t have to be afraid of being raped all the time.

          • Wald

            Equality eh?

            What about conscription? Why don’t women have to get signed up for the selective service act?

            More men than women have died in all wars of history to present. Should men stop fighting in the military until this inequality is corrected?

            More men than women die in jobs such as police work, fire fighting, and more. How do you propose to fix that inequality?

            Equal opportunities? What about affirmative action? That is giving preference to women when it comes to hiring them. That is not equal opportunity, that is making an equal outcome which is different and contradicts equal opportunity.

            Who or what has been preventing woman rising to their greatness?

          • JonathanNathan

            “What about conscription? Why don’t women have to get signed up for the selective service act?”–Well it isn’t really conscription anymore, for one thing. Second, I think they should have to sign up for it.

            “Should men stop fighting in the military until this inequality is corrected?”–I’m fine with the idea of all men leaving the military. I’m not that into the military.

            “More men than women die in jobs such as police work, fire fighting, and more.”–Probably because there are more men in those jobs.

            “Equal opportunities? What about affirmative action?”–It doesn’t go nearly far enough in correcting systemic sexism, racism, and classism. When the playing field is not level to begin with, a mechanism is required to forcibly level it. That’s what affirmative action is.

            “That is not equal opportunity, that is making an equal outcome which is different and contradicts equal opportunity.”–Like most of you Tea Party types, you misunderstand how affirmative action works.

            “Who or what has been preventing woman rising to their greatness?”–Systemic barriers to equality.

          • Wald

            Good job deleting my comments because you can’t reply to them.

            My original point stands. You don’t really care about woman’s rights at all. You just want to get laid. You’re pathetic.

          • JonathanNathan

            None of your comments have been deleted, buttercup.

            “You don’t really care about woman’s rights at all. You just want to get laid.”–There are so many better, more effective ways to get laid than writing feminist articles on the internet.

          • Wald

            I just saw my comments again. They pop up in sometimes and load up others. Must be discus. Thanks for not deleting them, like most people who debate on your side.

          • JonathanNathan

            Obviously the only reason I didn’t delete your comments was that I’m trying to have sex with women who don’t believe in deleting comments.

      • Wald

        Why do you betray your own sex, man?

  • CMFTW

    I f’n LOVE this article! Took the words right outta my mouth! Thanks for an awesome article!

  • MrHand

    The modern sexual order produces by design sexual paupers in the male
    population more so than in the decades before the sexual revolution,
    because in addition to unleashing female sexual agency, it has placed
    legal restrictions on traditional male advantages which were helpful in
    securing a mate. The internet has given voice to these sexual paupers,
    and they lash out at feminists who by and large cheer on the cultural
    revolution that created this desperate situation and who are utterly
    indifferent and callous about the plight of these men.

    • JonathanNathan

      “it has placed legal restrictions on traditional male advantages”–You mean like rape? Yeah, what a bummer that it’s illegal to rape someone.

      “feminists who by and large cheer on the cultural revolution that created this desperate situation and who are utterly indifferent and callous about the plight of these men.”–Count me among them. If you can’t get laid in 2013, that’s on you.

  • http://virtuousgiant.com Nathan Hangen

    While the entire sermon is full of fallacies and rash generalizations, it is also guilty of racism:

    ‘Women will die because a bunch of stupid old white men decided that they shouldn’t have control over their own bodies.’

    and male objectification (RG’s shirtless body).

    Other than citing a few extreme examples, the author fails to provide any evidence of said injustice.

    If you (the author) are trying to say that men should respect women, then of course that is true. It’s hard to argue that rape is OK. But you are also implying that a man is either like you, a suffering white male apologist, or a testosterone fueled objectifying rapist.

    I’ll end with a quote:

    “If you have an argument that runs counter to that, then fuck you”

    I’m glad we could find time to discuss like men.

    • JonathanNathan

      “it is also guilty of racism”–You really don’t understand what racism is.

      “and male objectification (RG’s shirtless body)”–Really? Pictures of an attractive person are objectification? That’s news to me.

      “It’s hard to argue that rape is OK.”–Then what’s your objection? All I’m saying is that women should have equal rights and opportunities, and that they shouldn’t have to be afraid of being raped all the time.

      “I’m glad we could find time to discuss like men.”–First of all, in context, the quoted statement is something I stand behind. If you don’t think women deserve equal rights and opportunities, then fuck you. Second, “discuss like men”? Do men not say “fuck you” or something?

  • Thomas Jones

    I get your point and for the most part agree with what you’re saying. My only issue I find with yours and many other feminist’s logic is how much you imply that all men are predators. I know a lot are, but sometimes I think that point is pushed too far and to me (and many others) reading things like this (although you’re not nearly as bad as others) I feel like the author is trying to make me feel guilty about being a man, or implying that I’ve mistreated women. I feel like they try to make men feel ashamed of themselves even if they haven’t done anything wrong. It’s like profiling. And women are not all saints. They are just as capable of mistreating a man as a man is capable of mistreating a woman. (However, in the case of women mistreating men it is more often psychological as opposed to physical abuse, however both still happen).

    All I know is that for my whole life I’ve treated women well. (never hit on them or treated them like objects, or groped them, etc. If anything I’ve always been too far in the other way, to the point where I have felt like girls would be disgusted at me for even being attracted to them.) Most of my male friends have not mistreated women either and yet I feel that people like us are ignored or even abused by women as a result, and then I read things like this that try to say WE’RE mistreating women. (Some of my friends have been cheated on and one even had a girlfriend who would punch him if he didn’t do what she said). It goes both ways and I just feel that many feminists tend to ignore wrongdoing on the part of women and make them seem like saints that are forced to endure endless abuse from “us evil men.”

    And for the “friend-zoning” thing, I can’t speak for guys as a whole, but in the context of mine and my friends’ experience, is not what you say it is. It’s not that we expect girls to fuck us just because we’re nice to them. Friend-zoning to me is when a guy treats a girl well (and who likes her and wants to date her) and she CHOOSES to date someone who does not, and then turns around and complains that “there are no good guys out there.” That gets under my skin! When a guy really likes a girl but because he’s not some kind of douchebag, she doesn’t give him a chance, that is friend-zoning. And in some cases guys in the “friend-zone” are expected to do everything a boyfriend would be expected to do for the girl with nothing in return. Some even expect these guys to buy them things! THAT is what pisses me off. It’s not as simple as “Oh, she doesn’t wanna fuck me so she’s a bitch.” It’s the fact they women use and manipulate men with the games they play.

    I do fully believe in equality, however I feel that many women’s idea of “equality” is somewhat contradictory. By this I simply mean that many women still like the idea of a male provider and protector and therefore expect men to provide for them (i.e. men paying for dates and sometimes driving them around), but at the same time claim that they want equality. There are still many women that feel like men should have to work for them even if the woman does nothing. (I know girls like this). It’s the whole “princess” mindset, and there are still plenty of women out there who think that it is a man’s job to be their servant almost and with the way men are being taught there are growing numbers of men who do become like their servant. I understand this IS changing, but it still exists. It seems to me that a man who bosses around his wife is looked at much more negatively than a women who bosses around her husband.

    To put it simply I feel that in many situations women (often without realizing it) hold themselves back and then blame men or society for it, and that feminists seem to ignore or not care about when men are mistreated, (almost as though they think we deserve it). The problem of gender inequality is not entirely the fault of men.

    • JonathanNathan

      “My only issue I find with yours and many other feminist’s logic is how much you imply that all men are predators.”–I feel that it’s important to point out that I, myself, am a man, and am writing specifically at an audience of men.

      “I feel like the author is trying to make me feel guilty about being a man, or implying that I’ve mistreated women.”–At issue here is not what you’ve consciously chosen to do, but rather male privilege.

      “It goes both ways and I just feel that many feminists tend to ignore wrongdoing on the part of women and make them seem like saints”–Feminism is not about which specific people are mistreating each other. It’s about systems of power and control and abuse. Nobody is denying that women do nasty stuff sometimes. But that’s not the point, just as the nasty stuff men do to other men is not the point. Those are separate issues.

      “Friend-zoning to me is when a guy treats a girl well (and who likes her and wants to date her) and she CHOOSES to date someone who does not, and then turns around and complains that “there are no good guys out there.” That gets under my skin! When a guy really likes a girl but because he’s not some kind of douchebag, she doesn’t give him a chance, that is friend-zoning.”–Here are my problems with the friend-zone concept.

      First, the guy who complains about being “friend-zoned” almost NEVER actually comes out and ASKS the girl to give him a chance! He just expects her to know how he feels and fall in love with him.

      Second, the nice-guy/friend-zone thing is predicated on this notion that a guy should get the girl because he’s nice. Sorry, but I call bullshit. Being nice and “treating a girl well” are baseline attributes, not a reason to date a guy.

      Third, the narrative always seems to claim that the woman dates “douchebags,” but that’s not really true. The reason the “nice guy” has that perception is that he’s her friend, so he’s most likely to hear the negative stuff. I hear more negative stuff than positive about my friends’ significant others, regardless of gender, but that doesn’t mean they’re all dating assholes. It just means people vent to their friends.

      Fourth, has it ever occurred to any of these “nice guys” that maybe when she says “there are no good guys out there” she’s hoping he’ll step up and say, “Well hey, what about me?” Which cuts back to the first issue I raised. Ultimately, the “nice guy” culture just seems to be comprised of a bunch of shrinking violets too terrified of life to actually go out and try to live their lives, so they expect everyone else to do the hard part for them.

      “And in some cases guys in the “friend-zone” are expected to do everything a boyfriend would be expected to do for the girl with nothing in return.”–Oh boy. Look. If you’re “doing everything a boyfriend would do” other than the physical intimacy stuff, guess what? THAT’S WHAT FRIENDS ARE. Furthermore, what is this “nothing in return”? You provide emotional support to her, she provides emotional support to you. And if she doesn’t, then stop hanging out with her! How hard is that? It’s like all these dudes are constantly complaining about how they hang out with these women who never want to date them and never return their emotional intimacy in kind…well why the fuck are you hanging out with her then? Go make a better friend!

      “It’s the fact they women use and manipulate men with the games they play.”–Either you’re only hanging out with shitty women, or I’m only hanging out with awesome women. Because I really don’t get this stuff from my women friends. Then again, that’s probably because I’m not trying/hoping/wishing to fuck them. It’s easier to be friends with somebody when you’re not secretly trying to get in their pants, I find.

      “By this I simply mean that many women still like the idea of a male provider and protector and therefore expect men to provide for them (i.e. men paying for dates and sometimes driving them around), but at the same time claim that they want equality.”–First of all, I know plenty of women of whom this is not true. Second, if that bothers you, then bring it up, man. If a woman expects you to pay for a date, just be like, “I’m a feminist and I believe that the notion of the man paying for the date is patronizing, patriarchal, and outmoded. We’re going Dutch or we’re not going.” Seriously, man, this is what I find myself saying so often to “nice guys,” etc.: If you have a problem with something, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

      “There are still many women that feel like men should have to work for them even if the woman does nothing. (I know girls like this).”–Then stop hanging out with those girls and if they try to hang out with you tell them to go fuck themselves.

      “It’s the whole “princess” mindset, and there are still plenty of women out there who think that it is a man’s job to be their servant almost and with the way men are being taught there are growing numbers of men who do become like their servant.”–I don’t really encounter any of this.

      “feminists seem to ignore or not care about when men are mistreated”–It’s not that feminists don’t care, it’s that the issue of whether a man was mistreated by someone isn’t feminism. I mean, you might as well say feminists don’t care about global warming. Most of them probably do, but that’s not feminism, so you’re not going to see a bunch of feminists saying, “Break down the patriarchy, and also stop global warming!”

      • Thomas Jones

        Okay. There is one other point that I made although I didn’t elaborate on that is actually the most relevant to my overall argument. Personal problems and mistreatment aside, women do bear some responsibility for gender inequality today. In addition to the points I made above about girls who use guys (and make them out to be assholes if they don’t allow themselves to be used), etc. women themselves feed into their own oppression.

        For example take that picture you posted in one of your comments of that woman with all of the leather when you were explaining what sexual objectification was. I’m quite sure no one held a gun to that woman’s head and forced her to pose that way. Hugh Hefner does not force Playmates to live and have sex with him. No one forces women to become Victoria’s Secret models. Countless women strive to be models and obsess over their appearance, even when it comes to things that guys don’t care about so the argument that guys are to blame for women’s obsession with their appearance isn’t 100% accurate. As you even said many women dress up for other women. Why is that? What do women feel the need to compete with each-other and put each-other down if they “aren’t pretty enough”? Is that the fault of men as well? Many women could get away with toning down their appearance and still look attractive enough to look good and for a man to be attracted to her. However women put each-other down so much that they become extremely insecure about their appearance and put more effort than is really necessary into it. That is a form of oppression that women inflict on themselves in many ways.

        While I completely agree that men need to be responsible for themselves and their actions, (which it is true that they are often not), women need to do the same. And you cannot tell me that any of those sex symbols pose like that just because they want to look good just for themselves. They do it because it gets them money and attention from men who are good looking and/or have money.

        This is an issue that feminists seem to ignore. While I am not trying to make excuses for ignorant and/or abusive men, women that do willingly allow themselves to be objectified the way they do or who act stupid when flirting with a guy are degrading THEMSELVES and are reinforcing the idea in guy’s minds that women don’t deserve their respect. You can talk all you want about how much women are oppressed by men but when you see women who WILLINGLY degrade and objectify themselves (and of course society seems to worship these kinds of women) it kind of cancels out everything you say and justifies the mistreatment of women in many people’s minds because they believe that women WANT to be treated like sex objects.

        In fact some women even seem to like being treaty like shit (to a point). It doesn’t make any sense but there are women out there who seem to like it when guys act like assholes to them, and guys see this and believe that is how they need to act if they are going to attract a woman. Whether it’s true or not guys really think that. Many guys truly believe that they need to treat a girl badly to keep her, that if they are too nice SHE will mistreat HIM. Again, not saying that it’s necessarily true, but guys really believe it and when women continue to allow themselves to be treated that way guys don’t think they are doing anything wrong.

        And finally, women are very subtle creatures. It is very rare that a women will come up to you and be straightforward in saying what she does or does not want. These are the “games” I spoke of in my first comment. Women seem to enjoy messing with guys heads and may even tease them sexually. This often confuses guys who will misread signals and think that the women wants sex (because, like most guys he doesn’t think she’s going to tell him outright one way or the other). This leads men to believe that they have to figure out for himself what the women really wants. Men don’t trust that what a women says is what she truly means because in many situations (even though usually not in the context of consenting to sex) it really isn’t. Not to say this justifies rape or anything else like that because it doesn’t. Determining whether or not a woman wants to have sex with you is not something that a man should try to determine with this kind of logic, but right or wrong it is why they do. Like the old saying men often believe women don’t know what they want and for that reason don’t feel that they are doing anything wrong when coercing women into sex.

        What women need to do is be more direct and straightforward with men and do a better job in making sure their true feelings are understood instead of being so indirect, subtle and contradictory, and for their part men need to pay more attention and respect a woman’s wishes, but that can only happen if she makes it clear what they are instead of making it like a guessing game. I’m not saying this makes any kind of mistreatment the woman’s fault, but it is in her own best interest not to tease or play games with men too much because not everyone knows (or cares) what she really wants or does not want.

        • JonathanNathan

          “For example take that picture you posted in one of your comments of that woman with all of the leather when you were explaining what sexual objectification was. I’m quite sure no one held a gun to that woman’s head and forced her to pose that way. Hugh Hefner does not force Playmates to live and have sex with him. No one forces women to become Victoria’s Secret models.”–When you tell a woman from the moment she’s cognitively aware that her primary value is as a sexual being, you can’t be surprised when she believes you.

          “As you even said many women dress up for other women. Why is that?”–Because people like to look good. What’s wrong with wanting to look good?

          “What do women feel the need to compete with each-other and put each-other down if they “aren’t pretty enough”?”–I don’t know any women who put each other down for not being pretty enough.

          “While I am not trying to make excuses for ignorant and/or abusive men”–You may not be TRYING to do that, but it’s exactly what you ARE doing.

          “it kind of cancels out everything you say and justifies the mistreatment of women in many people’s minds because they believe that women WANT to be treated like sex objects.”–Leaving aside the utterly fallacious argument you’ve just justified here, I’ll grant that some men may genuinely believe that women want to be treated like sex objects. But when those men are confrontd with the reality that women DON’T want that, do they change their behaviors? No. They freak out and shoot the messenger. It’s all over this comment section and it happens all over the world. Men WANT to believe that women like to be mistreated, because it allows them to feel justified in mistreating them.

          “In fact some women even seem to like being treaty like shit (to a point).”–Outside of the strict confines of BDSM and maybe the Catholic church, I’m pretty sure there’s no such person.

          “It doesn’t make any sense but there are women out there who seem to like it when guys act like assholes to them, and guys see this and believe that is how they need to act if they are going to attract a woman.”–Yes, I’m familiar with this notion. It’s the entire reasoning behind the pickup artist community. It’s the whole basis of the “nice-guy”/”friend-zoned” thing. But it’s bullshit. It’s predicated on the fact that from the outside looking in, all you see is the negative, so you conclude that she likes asshole guys. This then gives you–or whichever guy is under discussion–free reign to also be an asshole (because that’s what she likes, right?) The ultimate irony is that the guys who claim to be “nice guys” are usually awful, shitty people.

          “Again, not saying that it’s necessarily true, but guys really believe it and when women continue to allow themselves to be treated that way guys don’t think they are doing anything wrong.”–Allow themselves to be treated that way? To hear you tell it, there aren’t many guys out there that WON’T treat them that way, so why should they bother looking for someone better?

          “It is very rare that a women will come up to you and be straightforward in saying what she does or does not want.”–Not in my experience. I find women to be quite excellent communicators.

          “Women seem to enjoy messing with guys heads and may even tease them sexually.”–Aaaaaaaaaaaaand misogyny. Wondered when you’d finally just let it all out.

          “This often confuses guys who will misread signals and think that the women wants sex”–You know how you can find out if a woman wants sex? Ask her.

          “Like the old saying men often believe women don’t know what they want and for that reason don’t feel that they are doing anything wrong when coercing women into sex.”–And you claim to not be excusing men’s mistreatment of women.

          “What women need to do is be more direct and straightforward with men and do a better job in making sure their true feelings are understood”–You know why some women prefer to be indirect and subtle? Because they know that if they’re direct, they’ll be accused of being whores. A woman can’t win. If she’s direct, she’s a slut. If she’s coy, she’s a cockteasing bitch who deserves what she gets. At some point maybe men just need to stop making life impossible for women.

  • dashed

    ” Feminism is the simple belief
    that folks should have the same rights and opportunities as everyone
    else, free of fabricated and unnecessary barriers, without constantly fearing for their safety, regardless of gender.”

    Oh really? So that means if I believe that patriarchy and rape culture theories have absolutely no merit to them, that sexism goes both ways and that women and men each have unique privileges in society I can still be a feminist?

    Cool.

    • JonathanNathan

      “So that means if I believe that patriarchy and rape culture theories have absolutely no merit to them, that sexism goes both ways and that women and men each have unique privileges in society I can still be a feminist?”–No, because being a misogynist precludes being a feminist. And if you refuse to believe in plainly obvious facts while advocating for traditional gender roles, you’re a misogynist.

      • dashed

        Where have I been advocating for traditional gender roles? Or expressing hatred of women?

        • JonathanNathan

          “women and men each have unique privileges in society”=advocating traditional gender roles=misogyny.

          Not to mention all the rape apology you’ve been doing.

          • dashed

            You misunderstand me. You ever hear someone say men are privileged. I’m saying both have their own privileges that don’t cancel each other out. I’m not saying that’s a good thing

          • JonathanNathan

            Women’s “privileges” are paltry and meaningless compared to male privilege. But fine, dude, you got me. What ARE you saying? Stop moving the goalposts, stop switching back and forth between viewpoints. Just straight-out, what’s your position here?

          • dashed

            Men on average get higher sentences than women for the same crimes. So they’re not all paltry.

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

            Anyway I think both have privilege I think both get a raw deal from gender roles.

          • JonathanNathan

            So wouldn’t it be a good idea to fight against gender roles, literally one of the central goals of feminism?

          • dashed

            Yeah. I’ve seen some feminists act like you have to believe in rape culture/patriarchy/whatever to be one. That’s why I asked.

          • JonathanNathan

            Yes, you do have to believe in facts, that is true.

          • Ohone

            Feminism maintains gender roles. Its just does it in a different way from traditionalism. Take the feminist position and misinformation on domestic violence and abuse for one example.

          • JonathanNathan

            I’m sure you meant to actually say something in this comment, but you forgot to do so.

          • Ohone

            No. For example, when you spread misinformation about abuse being gendered, you maintain the traditional gender role that women cannot hurt, and men cannot be hurt by women. So, you are maintaining patriarchy, but you have no idea that you are.

          • JonathanNathan

            I didn’t say the thing you think I said.

          • Ohone

            You are saying those things, presented with the true information on abuse, you attack it, preferring the gendered narrative in which women’s violence is minimized and erased.. That’s patriarchy in action – women cannot act against men, only men can act against women, men are sinister and dangerous, women are victims, you are patriarchy and you don’t know it.

            Hope you get a pat on the head, or something – for humiliating yourself like this.

          • Ohone

            So being the most insulated from violence, while being held less responsible for crime and mistakes, not expected to die for others, not expected to support others, living longer, better health, domination in reproductive rights, family law, education and most markers of well being is a paltry set of privileges?

            I think you have been been listening to an ideology that is misleading you.

          • JonathanNathan

            “the most insulated from violence”–Rape victims would disagree with you.

            “held less responsible for crime and mistakes”–I’m waiting for proof of that. But even if we concede it’s true, I’m sure most women would gladly accept equality in criminal sentencing in exchange for being in control of their own lives.

            “not expected to die for others”–I don’t expect anyone to die for others. Nobody is forced to join the military.

            “living longer, better health”–Want to live longer and be healthier? Seems like something you can make happen with diet and exercise.

            “domination in reproductive rights”–Oh please, buttercup.

            “family law”–Not true, addressed below. In nearly all cases, primary custody is awarded to whichever parent was primary caregiver. You want custody? Be a stay-at-home dad.

            “most markers of well being”–Other than all the ones that count, I suppose.

            “your sexuality being demonized in minor way”–The only demonization of sexuality I’ve seen in this comments section has been people like you demonizing the sexuality of women. I very much enjoy my masculinity and my sexuality. I’d advise you to do the same, but I’m guessing you view yours as far too much of a war to ever enjoy it.

            “I think you have been been listening to an ideology that is misleading you.”–Believe it or not, I don’t sit around reading feminist books or websites or whatever it is you think I do. Writing this article and commenting with trolls like you are probably the sum total of my serious thoughts on the subject of gender relations in the last few months. I’m a very casual feminist.

          • Ohone

            >I’m a very casual feminist.”family law”–Not true, addressed below. In nearly all cases, primary custody is awarded to whichever parent was primary caregiver. You want custody? Be a stay-at-home dad. I’ve seen in this comments section has been people like you demonizing the sexuality of women.“the most insulated from violence”–Rape victims would disagree with you.<

            Ah, you mean the rape victims that are considered raped if someone forcibly penetrated them but aren't counted or considered rapists if they forcibly someone to penetrate them.

            You don't know what the statistics for women forcing men to have sex look like, because feminism is only telling your half the story.

            etc.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Ah, well perhaps you should know what you are talking about before you publish articles.”–I do. I’m talking about feminism. I said that like a whole bunch of times.

            “Your ideology has been lying to you about a great many things.”–Why do you keep talking like Emperor Palpatine?

            “But then the law would discriminate against my breadwinner wife. It would still be unequal.”–No it wouldn’t. Primary caregiver gets primary custody. It’s simple.

            “I have not demonized the sexuality of women, you on the other hand are demonizing men.”–How am I demonizing men? I’m a man, and I lustily enjoy being one.

            “You don’t know what the statistics for women forcing men to have sex look like”–So enlighten me.

          • Ohone

            >”But then the law would discriminate against my breadwinner wife. It would still be unequal.”–No it wouldn’t. Primary caregiver gets primary custody. It’s simple.>

            You are simple, if the law says only the primary care giver gets automatic rights, the law discriminates against whoever is not the primary care giver.

            >How am I demonizing men? I’m a man, and I lustily enjoy being one.”You don’t know what the statistics for women forcing men to have sex look like”–So enlighten me.<

            I don't believe that stats. or facts can enlighten you, but how and ever.

            "Rates of sexually aggressive behaviors among women vary from one segment of the United States to another, but the evidence presented here shows that as many as 7% of women self-report the use of physical force to obtain sex, 40% self-report sexual coercion, and over 50% self-report initiating sexual contact with a man while his judgment was impaired by drugs or alcohol (Anderson, 1998). Given these numbers, it is appropriate to conclude that women's sexual aggression now represents a usual or typical pattern (i.e., has become normal), within the limits of the data reviewed in this paper."

            http://www.ejhs.org/volume5/deviancetonormal.htm

            Im going to leave you to your preposterous gallantry and gender role playing now. Hope you get your fish, keep clapping those fins together.

  • dashed

    3)

    “There are now more women in Congress than there have ever been before.
    20% of the Senate is comprised of women. And by all accounts, their
    presence, particularly in positions of committee leadership, has been a
    very good thing.”
    First off name some of those accounts, show some of the proof they’ve been the ones getting stuff done. Second I don’t think pointing to Congress is the ace in the hole you seem to think it is. Congress is terrible at their job and their approval rating is really low. Who cares what the Senate passes if the House isn’t going to pass it. Republicans in the House pass all kinds of stupid crap they know won’t pass the Senate or signed by Obama but they still pass it so they can be symbolic and tell people what great conservatives they are. It still does nothing.

    Oh and there are Republican women. If you really think women would make better leaders how about we elect Sarah Palin or Ann Coulter?

    • JonathanNathan

      “Second I don’t think pointing to Congress is the ace in the hole you seem to think it is. Congress is terrible at their job and their approval rating is really low.”–Which is obviously the fault of the women in Congress, none of whom are the leaders of a majority caucus.

      “If you really think women would make better leaders”–Didn’t say that.

      • dashed

        The Congressional leaders don’t have veto power, or extra votes so I don’t know why you’re pointing to them. Didn’t say the women were at fault, it’s just that Congress (as a whole) is an incompetent fuck-up that no on likes. They aren’t an inspiring success story,

        • JonathanNathan

          “The Congressional leaders don’t have veto power, or extra votes so I don’t know why you’re pointing to them.”–Aw, does the little fella not know how Congress works? That’s adorable.

  • Vallentina Ossitocina

    Every man (but also every woman) MUST read this.
    I love you.

  • Luiz

    So I met a girl in a party and I talk to her online. And I think she’s pretty.

    AM I WIMMIN OPRESSUR NAO?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?1

    • JonathanNathan

      Oh good, the Redditors have arrived.

      • Luiz

        I never visited Reddit.

        like

        never

        Your logic ( Thinking that I don’t agree with the logical fallacy of this article, must mean I am from Reddit) didn’t work.

        • JonathanNathan

          No, my logic is that because you hate feminists and you type like you spend too much time on the internet, you’re probably from Reddit.

          • Luiz

            Wow, you have me all figured out! Congrats!
            And I don’t have feminists, I just hate those that go overboard with it. Feminism is pretty much the belief that women should be equal to men. Anything more than that tends to get a little sketchy.

          • JonathanNathan

            Then what’s your problem with me?

          • Luiz

            I don’t have a problem with you. In fact, you were the one that decided to reply to my comment and started saying stuff about me being a Redditor, like you know me and shit.

  • Ramón Goldaraberg

    1) There is absolutely no logic argument for feminism. Not one. If I’m to be convinced into adopting an ideology, at least it has to make sense.
    2) The more feminist men there are, the fewer women will get raped? Show me the statistics and I might buy into this one. Then, repeat for the men raped.
    3) When competent people are in charge of stuff, they do a really good job. My country is mainly led by incompetent men AND women. And they all suck. Equally.
    4) When abortion is restricted, people die. I can be a pro-choice without being a feminist. Actually, I’m not quite ready to let them monopolize this issue.
    5) Oppression doesn’t end until the oppressor stops oppressing. I don’t oppress anyone and I won’t be shamed into believing so.

    • JonathanNathan

      1) No logical argument for the notion that people are equal and shouldn’t have to live in constant fear of sexual violence? I suppose it depends on your presuppositions, but to me the logic of that is self-evident.
      2) I get the feeling you only read the bold headings and nothing further. One of feminism’s main goals is educating people about what really constitutes rape. A feminist man is more educated about what rape is and is therefore less likely to commit it, because most people don’t want to rape anyone.
      3) No, your country is mainly led by men, period. I’m sorry. That was presumptuous of me. I don’t know what your country is. Is it on Earth? If it’s not, then I retract my statement. If it is, then the point stands.
      4) Oh of course you can. You wouldn’t want to be forced to have to pay for your rape babies, would you?
      5) Yet I’m sure you’re quite eager to declare that women are oppressing you. Are you really so ignorant as to believe that your actions have only the desired effects? That there are no consequences beyond the ones you intend?

      • Ramón Goldaraberg

        1) Feminist ideology is built on false/wrong/misconstrued theories which defy logic at every turn. The moral value you attach to it is entirely subjective and does not make the feminist theories correct nor the movement actually capable of changing anything. Again, the attachment to feminism is based on feelings, not facts.
        2) Not the case. In any case, if adopting a given ideology reduces a particular crime, please point me at the corresponding statistics. After all, we have over a century of feminism and, what it looks to me as zero results.
        3) We have had and have female ministers, VPs, regional leaders and majors. Both quota-enforced and worthy of their offices. No noticeable change has come of this. Not in gender issues, not in any other respect. Again, ignoring the thousands of women leaders throughout history is feels. Not fact. Much in the same way, we have had feminist men ruling. As Obama appears to be. Weren’t feminist men supposed to make all the difference? Or should men embrace feminism and turn power over to feminist women? Would this be equality? I’m confused.
        4) First-class feels here. I’m pro-choice but, apparently, since I’m not a feminist, I’m a rapist fathering children all over town. Thanks for championing the rational, sedate feminism. Bravo.
        5) Gender-classes are a most preposterous notion. Women are not oppressing me. Nobody is. I was when I sacrificed freedom for safety. I don’t anymore.

        • JonathanNathan

          If you’re at the point of disparaging a man for having emotions, I doubt we’re going to find much common ground.

          • Ramón Goldaraberg

            Hey, you were the one to call me rapist. But even so, I carried on, decided to have a polite, rational, logical argument based on facts.

            But sure, please do carry on feeling offended and with your other feelings. Do not let facts ruin your reality.

  • Ohone

    Why would I lie about the nature of domestic violence, and sex criminality – pretending that its gendered hurts both men and women. Also, advocating for women to have reproductive privileges that men do not have is inequality. Fairness dictates in cultures with abortion for women, there is also paper abortion for men.

    • JonathanNathan

      “pretending that its gendered hurts men, women and children and perpetuates the cycle of violence.”–What a fantastic concern troll you are.

      “Also, advocating for women to have reproductive privileges that men do not have is inequality.”–What, you want to be able to get pregnant or something? I’m afraid your lack of ovaries has very little to do with feminism. Take that up with God.

      “Fairness dictates in cultures with abortion for women, there is also paper abortion for men to protect against accidents, rape and fraud.”–You don’t want a baby? Don’t stick your dick in places where babies come from.

      • Ohone

        Rather than just hurling insults why not ask for peer reviewed sources?

        That’ another thing about feminists, the casual abuse of people that have information that contradicts their ideology.

        • JonathanNathan

          First of all, hurling insults is more fun. Second, I’m assuming that if you had any peer reviewed sources, you’d have led with them instead of just babbling inanities.

          • Ohone

            Right, feminists all to often think its ok and fun to abuse other people, I know that. Abusing your target market, is the wrong way to sell something. This leads me to believe that you are more interested in feminist cookies and pats on the head than you are in selling feminism.

            Anyhow, on to the actual evidence that feminism is lying to you about abuse

            The most comprehensive review of the scholarly domestic violence research literature ever conducted concludes, among other things, that women perpetrate physical and emotional abuse, and engage in control behaviors, at comparable rates to men. The study was directed by the Editor-in-Chief of Partner Abuse, a Springer Publishing Company journal.

            http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/5/prweb10741752.htm?PID=4003003

            Methods feminism uses to lie to you about abuse and negative outcomes for prevention.

            GENDER SYMMETRY IN PARTNER VIOLENCE:

            THE EVIDENCE, THE DENIAL, AND THE IMPLICATIONS FOR

            PRIMARY PREVENTION AND TREATMENT 1

            http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V70%20version%20N3.pdf

            It would be unethical for me to support feminism’s lies about abuse.

            This feminists position on reproductive equality is ethical, but it contradicts the modern feminists position.

            “If women have the right to choose if they become parents, men [should] have that right too. There is a connection between legalizing abortion for women and ending of paternity suits for men. Giving men their own choices would not deny choices to women. It would only eliminate their expectation of having those choices financed by men.”

            “Justice therefore dictates that if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support. Or, put another way, autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice.”

            Karen DeCrow ex NOW president.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Right, feminists all to often think its ok and fun to abuse other people, I know that.”–Oh don’t paint with such a broad brush. I certainly have enjoyed making fun of you, but I wouldn’t presume to speak for all feminists.

            “Abusing your target audience, is the wrong way to see something.”–You’re not my target audience. You don’t like or trust women and I doubt I have any chance of changing that.

            “This leads me to believe that you are interested in feminist cookies”–Who doesn’t like cookies? They’re delicious. If you’re not interested in cookies…wow, man.

            “The most comprehensive review…”–Ah yes, the well-known PASK study. Conducted almost entirely by men and very closely linked to prominent misogynist groups and individuals.

            “Methods feminism uses to lie to you”–Who’s lying to me? Do you think I sit around all day listening to people tell me about domestic violence?

            As for “reproductive equality”: I say again, if you don’t want a baby, don’t put your dick in a place where babies come out of.

          • Ohone

            >Ah yes, the well-known PASK studyConducted almost entirely by men and very closely linked to prominent misogynist groups and individuals.Who’s lying to me?As for “reproductive equality”: I say again, if you don’t want a baby, don’t put your dick in a place where babies come out of>

            So basically the same thing the religious right say to women,”you don’t want babies, keep your legs closed”.

            Ok. I’m done with you. You’re abusive, dishonest, sexist and unethical – typical modern feminist. You are basically a performing seal hoping a woman will give you a fish for abusing other men and lying about abuse rates.

          • JonathanNathan

            Oh stop it, ya flirt.

          • Joel

            Based on your responses throughout this comment section, you are incredibly fragile emotionally and your defense mechanism when you are shown up needs a lot of work. If I were you, I wouldn’t be so proud to be the feminist you’ve portrayed yourself as when you’ve managed to paint a rancid portrait of modern feminism throughout this comment thread in the eyes of any logically thinking individual by using backwards insults, condescending communication and an overall display of extreme black-and-white thinking.

            Your use of blatant assumptive thinking and continually resorting to personal insults time and again (though some are deserving) has made this entirely entertaining – but most importantly, it has made me want to distance myself from male feminists such as yourself.

            And to provide a precursor to what you may say in rebuttal, I have no desire to distance myself completely from male feminists – just the ones who carry themselves in debate like you do. I consider myself a egalitarian and a practicing humanist – yet I have not been able to agree with much of what you said and how you said it only because you exhibit an attitude which is typically reserved for fanatical religious zealots.

            Take care.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Based on your responses throughout this comment section, you are incredibly fragile emotionally”–Well just shut down the psychology classes, everybody! Joel from the internet’s got it covered!

            “And to provide a precursor to what you may say in rebuttal, I have no desire to distance myself completely from male feminists”–OK. If I pretend to believe that this is in any way honest on your part, will you stop trying so hard at the pretense?

            “I consider myself a egalitarian”–He mansplained Redditly.

            “yet I have not been able to agree with much of what you said and how you said it only because you exhibit an attitude which is typically reserved for fanatical religious zealots.”–Wow, the only reason you don’t agree with me is that you don’t like the way I frame my arguments? You’re like an umpire who gets confused by a catcher’s pitch-framing. Silly boy.

          • Joel

            ["Based on your responses throughout this comment section, you are incredibly fragile emotionally"--Well just shut down the psychology classes, everybody! Joel from the internet's got it covered!]

            - I try, from time to time.

            ["And to provide a precursor to what you may say in rebuttal, I have no desire to distance myself completely from male feminists"--OK. If I pretend to believe that this is in any way honest on your part, will you stop trying so hard at the pretense?]

            - I have no reason to lie on the internet; I have no reputation to uphold here. You can believe my word, or not – you’ve chosen the latter in this case.

            ["I consider myself a egalitarian"--He mansplained Redditly.]

            - The only bone I have to pick here. Please don’t confuse the term [egalitarianism] overused by pent-up anti-socialites looking for any way to gain credibility and win an argument, and the term widely accepted in numerous philosophies worldwide. It’s irresponsible.

            ["yet I have not been able to agree with much of what you said and how you said it only because you exhibit an attitude which is typically reserved for fanatical religious zealots."--Wow, the only reason you don't agree with me is that you don't like the way I frame my arguments? You're like an umpire who gets confused by a catcher's pitch-framing. Silly boy.]

            - If you were to “frame” your argument differently in some cases here, you might be able to get a deeper, more meaningful point across. I’ll presume in most cases, you got tired of arguing with some dimwits which, I will attest to their existence, were tireless in their efforts to simply “prove you wrong” in some way However, to my point – if two people argue to abolish slavery – one using the inherently evil idea of “humans as property” as the tipping point for malevolence, while the other wants to end slavery only because it will save the lives of Americans during the Civil War (and not because they necessarily disagree with the whole ‘humans as property’ concept), the two may agree with the end result, but how the end result was achieved will be of serious issue down the road regarding, to put it simply, “being on the same page”.

            You can write assumption after assumption about my stance on humans – women and men – but to assume that I’m simply confused (as in, your unified theory is somehow too complex for me to grasp) is childish and narcissistic.

            If you want to argue against the male demographic and claim that, in it’s entirety, it lacks any repression – put some thought into the dynamic facing respectful, conscientious males and the current feminist generation’s constantly evolving definition of what is acceptable in the dating world and what is unacceptable. As was discussed in these comments specifically, the definition of “dating techniques” vs. “cornering tactics”, a “compliment” vs. “cat-calling”, or “consensual sex” vs. “coercion”.

            The lines between these opposites reduce each time a new idea evolves and real men are faced with two options (outside being a misogynist), currently – bend the rules and risk breaking them, or become a complete hermit and avoid sex at all costs. According to most feminists, In a specific scenario, I am guilty of “coercion” because I suggest to a woman that we leave the bar and head back to my place for the night, even though A) we’re both clearly intoxicated and B) I in no way present her with passive-aggressive and emotionally abusive stipulations such as (for example), “you’ll be stranded here if you don’t” or “I’ll fuck your friend instead” which probably happen regularly.

            Women struggle with real threats daily, but the conscientious, respectful males struggling to evolve with the all-too-real expectations of feminists will only continue to grow in numbers as the population of ass-holes dwindle in size. Let’s not be mistaken, the media sensationalizes a number of things – including nightlife, and sex (whether consensual or not is subjective in their eyes).

            To end my rant, I’ll say this: My only bone to pick with your article is simply that you give reasons on why oppression exists, but offer up no insight as to what alternatives to use, other than “I have a personality and you obviously don’t”. I have a theory – it’s because you, as a male feminist, don’t have an answer. You’ve found something indescribable that works for you, but it has no name. Arguing “a personality is a good place to start” is a feeble one without much real thought. And guess what? Feminists don’t have an answer either. Nobody can agree on what’s “right”, but everyone can sure agree on what’s “wrong”.

            Leaving men to simply guess what can be accepted only leads to more frustration, and thus, more anger toward women. I’m not rationalizing any violence toward women, nor am I claiming it’s a woman’s fault. I’m simply pointing out a possible reason as to why it’s so hard to stop the “oppression”.

            - Joel

  • John Rambo

    His character in The Believer was pretty bad ass. A skinhead Nazi who hates jews.

    Heil HITLER!!

  • anonymouscomment

    i’m just going to look at this list step by step.

    “there is absolutely no moral argument against Feminism ” -Why because you say so? Feminism is not immune to criticism and is not synonymous with equality seeing as there have been plenty of Men and Women who fought for Women’s rights before Feminism existed.

    “The more Feminist men there are, the fewer women will get raped. Seriously”- Again wheres your proof? does calling yourself a Feminist magically remove your ability to rape? Simone De Bolivar was a Feminist icon and she still raped several women-or does that not count B/C she’s female?

    “When women are in charge of stuff, they do a really good job”- Margaret Thatcher, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, and dozens of other female leaders from History disprove this assertion. Also, the idea that we need more women in Power to end sexism makes no logical sense. Human psychology shows that both men and women have a psychological bias in favor of women (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491274)

    just because the president is a man doesn’t mean that men have more power than women- Mens issues are never discussed by the politicians while women’s rights was one of the primary issues of the 2012 election.

    “When abortion is restricted, people die.” i’m well aware of that- but funny that you think men are the ones who need to be convinced that abortion should be legalized when women are more likely to be pro life and men are more likely to be pro choice

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

    “Oppression doesn’t end until the oppressor stops oppressing.”

    hoo boy, this is gonna be fun.

    “But when you tell a random woman on the street that she looks beautiful today, or that she should smile; when you try to pick up on a girl at the bar without even bothering to try getting to know her first;” its called a compliment. not every guy who compliments you is sexually objectifying you.

    “when you tweet out that what happened in Steubenville was bad but that girl shouldn’t have gotten so drunk;” this i actually have a problem with- although i hope you realize that there were women who said the exact same thing about that incident

    “when you talk about women as if they were sexual objects; when you complain about being “friendzoned”; when you do these and a thousand other little things, you oppress women.” being upset that a girl you like doesn’t reciprocate your feelings is the literal equivalent of oppression of women. i’m pretty sure that acid attacks and rape are more serious than guys who feel sad about rejection.

    “It’s a culture in which women can still lose their jobs because they get pregnant.” if you get pregnant and are fired that’s grounds for a lawsuit (when has this ever happened anyway? serious question i had no idea that this was a thing that businesses did.)

    “It’s a culture protected by a military disturbingly rife with sexual predators and rapists” the majority of rape victims in the military are male (about 56%)

    “It’s a culture in which women still don’t make as much money as men do for the same work” the wage gap has been disproven a billion times already.

    http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap

    “t’s a culture that tells women they shouldn’t “try to have it all” (which means having a family and a career and a social life) while telling men they should be ambitious and go out there and take what they want.” except men never had the opportunity to have it all. in order to be successful, men had to devote their entire lives to their jobs and had little time for their families. on a related note, women who attempt to have it all are the main reason for the wage gap myth- they work less hours to spend time with their families and are thus paid less.

    • JonathanNathan

      “Why because you say so?”–No, for the reasons I wrote above. Are you dense or something?

      “Again wheres your proof?”–You’re literally only reading words in bold type, aren’t you?

      “Mens issues are never discussed by the politicians”–Men’s issues? Awww…li’l guy feeling left out? Maybe when we have to live in constant fear of rape, you’ll have a point there.

      “women are more likely to be pro life and men are more likely to be pro choice”–Nice cherry-picking. That’s one survey from four years ago. More recent information, including from Gallup, disproves that.

      “not every guy who compliments you is sexually objectifying you.”–And not everything you do has only the effect which you intend.

      “the majority of rape victims in the military are male”–Source.

      “the wage gap has been disproven a billion times already.”–And when I say source, I mean “not a source which is closely linked to misogynists.”

      “except men never had the opportunity to have it all. in order to be successful, men had to devote their entire lives to their jobs and had little time for their families.”–Which sucks. So stop fucking doing it.

      • anonymouscomment

        you offered no proof. you just stated that there is no argument against Feminism and then linked to the dictionary. you can support womans rights without being a Feminist-as i previously stated, the concept of “womans rights” has been around long before Feminism. Feminism is more than just equality. to be a Feminist, you need to accept Patriarchy theory which is demonstrably false.
        “youre literally only reading the words in bold type arent you?” well you didnt read the rest of my argument. show me proof that Feminist activism has reduced the rate of rape. you also didnt adress my second point- several of Simone De Bolivar’s students have come forth and claimed they were sexually abused by her. Simone De Bolivar is one of the most famous and revered Feminists in the past hundred years. she was a sexual abuser and a Feminist.
        when i said mens issues are never discussed by politicians i was saying that even though the politicians are male they care more about men than women. if you looked at the link i posted, you’d see that both sexes have a psychological bias in favor of women. women are the majority of voters. Obama got reelected by appealing to the women voters and womens rights. the leaders may be male but they care about female issues more than mens issues.
        the source i posted about abortion was outdated? cool, show me a more recent poll. and even if that source is wrong, it doesnt change the fact that there are women who are pro life and they vote for pro life politicians.
        “not everything you do has only the effect which you intend” so people should censor themselves because women might be offended by a compliment? thats insanity. where do you get the right to speak on behalf of all women and say they are all affected negatively by something as trivial as a passive remark?
        want a source for the military rape? here ya go.
        http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/20/victims-of-sex-assaults-in-military-are-mostly-sil/

        how is the source i used misogynistic? how. if you can proof that my source is biased or incorrect than please do so.
        the pay gap exists because men and women make different career choices, not because corporations are paying them less. a man and a woman working the same job for the same hours will have equal pay. men work longer hours and are more likely to choose higher paying, and more dangerous jobs. if you wanna end the pay gap, convince women to become doctors instead of nurses.
        you misinterpreted my last comment, perhaps intentionally. women can”t have it all and neither can men. working at a job takes time and effort and leaves people with no time for their families. if men just stopped doing it, they wouldnt earn as much and being the breadwinner is something men have been socialized to do.
        and way to pull the women are afraid card. women are the minority of victims of crime in all 50 states- hell if you can name a single country where that is untrue id be surprised.
        http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=245
        even if you wanna be more specific and talk about partner violence-sorry but thats roughly equal as well.

        http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

        • anonymouscomment

          whoops i meant to right Simone De Beauvoir not bolivar. can’t believe i screwed that up

  • Ivan

    One of the strangest misconceptions about the feminist movement is the notion that every woman is a feminist

    • JonathanNathan

      Was that a pointless, apropos-of-nothing Guy Ritchie reference? At any rate, if you want to know how often I get laid, I’ll fax you over a copy of my certified getting-laid numbers for the month of June, stamped and signed by the Department of How Much Does This Guy Get Laid.

      …let’s see, now it’s my turn for a movie reference that doesn’t make any sense…Because at least in prison and at least in death, you know, I wouldn’t be in fuckin’ Bruges. But then, like a flash, it came to me. And I realized, fuck man, maybe that’s what hell is: the entire rest of eternity spent in fuckin’ Bruges.

      • Ivan

        Are you serious? You actually trying to prove my point? I shamed you into compliance with one snarky line? What does that say about your masculinity? Your inner strength? It is a good quality to stand up for something but fisting-plus activism is fools gold. It’s a lie. It is destroying your confidence, your sense of self, your manhood. You will never be happy if you are ashamed of your gender. Please oh please don’t destroy whatever masculinity you got left. Drop the fisting-plus act like a rock and work on your self respect. Read some MRM theories, reflect, and don’t let feminists brainwash you. I don’t expect you to become an MRA but at least keep an open mind.

        • JonathanNathan

          No, I’m not serious. Because there is no such thing as the Department of How Much Does This Guy Get Laid.

          • Ivan

            oh good. keep on fighting that oppressive patriarchy!

          • JonathanNathan

            Did you seriously believe there was a Department of How Much Does This Guy Get Laid? You’re really gullible, man.

          • Ivan

            You are free to believe whatever you wish to believe but keep in mind what I’ve said. You could try to read some PUA stuff, some of them got interesting perspectives on sex and relationships. Women People will not respect you unless you stand up for your self. Your strong beliefs is a good start but subservient mindset is not. You need to realize that you’re not a second best. You are a man. Take pride in that. Men made this civilization with subtle guidance from women. Oppression as feminists describe it never happened. It’s a lie. Ask your grandmother.

            And what makes you think I’m a man?

          • JonathanNathan

            “You could try to read some PUA stuff”–I have. It’s gross.

            “People will not respect you unless you stand up for your self.”–I thought I was doing that by arguing you with all you creepers in the comments section here.

            “You need to realize that you’re not a second best.”–At what?

            “You are a man. Take pride in that.”–Take pride in an accident of birth, one which I had nothing to do with? I might as well be proud to have been born in America, or proud to have brown hair, or proud to have been born in 1986.

            “Men made this civilization”–And what a wonderful job they did of it.

            “Oppression as feminists describe it never happened. It’s a lie. Ask your grandmother.”–So she can tell me about how when she was a young woman, the general societal response to a man raping a woman was “boys will be boys”?

            “And what makes you think I’m a man?”–You’re a man.

          • Ivan

            Thank you for understanding. You are a credit to feminism.

          • JonathanNathan

            Thank you for your cryptic bullshit that doesn’t make sense. You are a credit to not making sense.

  • Alex Reynard

    >1) There is absolutely no moral argument against feminism. Not one.

    Aaaand you’ve failed already.

    Here’s a moral argument: feminist groups with political power have spent the last forty years or so disseminating fraudulent statistics on rape and domestic violence, making male victims invisible and painting a picture of these crimes as always perpetuated by men against women.

    Here’s another moral argument: the same feminists who will rally against the indescribable evil of female genital mutilation will insist that when the same thing happens to baby boys it’s not even worth discussing.

    • JonathanNathan

      “Here’s a moral argument: feminist groups with political power have spent the last forty years or so disseminating fraudulent statistics on rape and domestic violence, making male victims invisible and painting a picture of these crimes as always perpetuated by men against women.”–Nobody’s saying men never get raped, guy. But you wouldn’t ask an environmentalist group to make an issue of male rape victims. Why are you expecting feminist groups to do it? Do it yourself, whiner.

      “Here’s another moral argument: the same feminists who will rally against the indescribable evil of female genital mutilation will insist that when the same thing happens to baby boys it’s not even worth discussing.”–Oh so what you’re telling me is that baby boys have their dicks cut off? That’s crazy. I thought they were just getting circumcised. Cutting people’s dicks off is WAY worse than just slicing off some basically pointless skin nobody will ever miss at an age when a child can’t even create memories yet. My bad.

    • matttwithonet

      Your first point is rife with bias. The fact that you think that women even NEED to make up rape statistics tell me you’re only responding to whatever self-indulgent offense you’ve taken to this awesome article. And also, you have no proof. I looked myself just now, and what you’re saying is purely opinion. If it’s not, please cite your sources.

      Secondly, the fact that you’re comparing circumcision of a male to that of a female is horrendous, and extremely ignorant. Circumcising a male at birth does not rob them of the pleasures of sexual contact like it does a woman. And if you can point out ANY country in which a male (and ADULT male) is forcibly circumcised, and then continuously raped afterwards… well, then I guess you DO win the argument.

      Your points are exactly the mentality this article is trying to point out.

      Just because a feminist, male or female, is critical of men, there is NO reason for you to take the defensive. That is, unless you’re a misogynist. And you, sir, just showed your true colors.

      • Alex Reynard

        >The fact that you think that women even NEED to make up rape statistics tell me

        I didn’t say “women” make up statistics, I’m saying feminists do. One is a gender, the other is an ideology. An ideology that happens to have immense political power. Here’s the CDC doing exactly what I described: http://www.genderratic.com/p/836/manufacturing-female-victimhood-and-marginalizing-vulnerable-men/

        >Secondly, the fact that you’re comparing circumcision of a male to that of a female is horrendous, and extremely ignorant.

        No it isn’t. Saying that the severity of one crime makes another crime not worthy of attention is what’s horrendous and ignorant.

        >Circumcising a male at birth does not rob them of the pleasures of sexual contact like it does a woman.

        How can you say that? If a man is circumcised at birth, he will never have any opportunity to know what natural sex feels like. There is literally no way for him to know how much sensation he’s lost.

        >And if you can point out ANY country in which a male (and ADULT male) is forcibly circumcised, and then continuously raped afterwards…

        Why is it more bad if an adult is forced to than a helpless infant? Plenty of baby boys are circumcised in the US with no anesthesia and no ability to say no to the procedure. And considering that we have an epidemic of prison rape in this country, no one’s doing anything to stop it, pop culture treats it like a punchline, and the vast majority of victims are men…

        >Just because a feminist, male or female, is critical of men, there is NO
        reason for you to take the defensive. That is, unless you’re a
        misogynist. And you, sir, just showed your true colors.

        So did you. You resorted to calling me a bigot because I oppose a political ideology. Once again: feminist is not a gender. When you say that my only motive for disagreeing with an ideology is that I hate women, you show *yourself* to be on the defensive.

        • matttwithonet

          1) You DID imply that. Quit trying to flip it around and be all innocent. Take responsibility for your bigotry. Yes, I agree with you. It IS bigotry. And the fact that you’re implying I am being bigoted only goes to show you’re just another rightwing, young, ignorant troll who probably doesn’t even believe what he’s writing and thinks he’s smart because he doctores his ignorance up with good grammar.

          And that link? LOL WOW, is this your first time trolling? You are really pathetic.

          2) It isn’t a CRIME. Quit trolling, it’s offensive and doesn’t make you cool in the least. Implying male circumsition is a crime is the f*****ng stupidest argument I’ve ever heard, but thanks for playing.

          3) No, they feel it the same. I should know. And on top of that, it’s effing science. Looks it up.

          4) Feminisim is NOT a political ideology, and the fact that you think it is.. well… keep on keepin on hillbilly. It’s a common sense attitude toward fairness. And of course I’m on the defensive when I have to be part of a moronic sex alongside people like you.

          Respond, thumbs down, do whatever you think makes you cool. But we’re done talking, because you are a jagaloon with unsubstantiated, misogynist, and ignorant opinions. Everything you said only perpetuates this articles points.

          But have fun trying to argue with people. You’re obviously new at it.

          • Alex Reynard

            >You DID imply that.

            Only if you honestly think there is no difference between ‘feminists’ and ‘women’.

            >you’re just another rightwing, young, ignorant troll who
            probably doesn’t even believe what he’s writing and thinks he’s smart because he doctores his ignorance up with good grammar.

            1) I’m a liberal. 2) I’m 31. 3) Just because you can’t understand why I believe in my position doesn’t mean I don’t. 4) The fact that you’d try to insult me for my use of good grammar speaks volumes about you.

            >And that link? LOL WOW, is this your first time trolling? You are really pathetic.

            So what problem exactly did you have with that extensively explanatory article that cites all its sources?

            >Implying male circumsition is a crime is the f*****ng stupidest argument I’ve ever heard, but thanks for playing.

            It’s not currently illegal, I know. But if someone cut off part of a baby’s cock for sexual gratification, that would be a crime, yes? So why isn’t it when someone does it for religious reasons?

            >No, they feel it the same. I should know.

            So you chose to get circumcised in adulthood? That’s literally the only way you’d be able to make that comparison.

            >And on top of that, it’s effing science. Look it up.

            Okay: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102

            “circumcised men reported decreased sexual pleasure and lower orgasm intensity. They also stated more effort was required to achieve orgasm”

            >Feminisim is NOT a political ideology, and the fact that you think it is.. well… keep on keepin on hillbilly.

            “Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.”

            That sure sounds like a political ideology to me. I guess Wikipedia’s run by hillbillies too.

            >It’s a common sense attitude toward fairness.

            No, that’s _equality_ you’re thinking of. Feminism is not equality in the same way religion is not morality.

            >because you are a jagaloon with unsubstantiated,
            misogynist, and ignorant opinions.

            I notice you’ve only insulted me and my ideas; not done anything to show why yours are more true.

          • JonathanNathan

            “1) I’m a liberal.”–No you’re not.

          • Alex Reynard

            >”1) I’m a liberal.”–No you’re not.

            Ummm… On what grounds are you calling me a liar about that?

          • JonathanNathan

            Takes more to make a liberal than self-application of the word. You gotta actually be one. And you’re not.

          • Alex Reynard

            Okay, but you don’t seem to understand what I asked. WHAT GROUNDS do you have for declaring this? Do you consider feminism an integral part of liberalism? If so, why should your definition matter more than mine?

          • JonathanNathan

            Yes, if the fact that virtually every woman in America lives in constant fear of sexual violence doesn’t bother you, you’re not a liberal.

          • Alex Reynard

            For starters, that’s a pathetically transparent attempt to shame me into agreeing with you. When I say that I disagree with feminism ideologically, you have no basis for claiming that I hate or don’t care about women. Feminism is not the only path to gender equality. I disagree not with its intentions, but its results.

            Secondly, just because women fear sexual violence more does not mean they are uniquely the victims of it. Some estimates of the rates of prison rape (vast majority of victims are male) show the numbers as high as all other rapes, yet society treats it as a joke. When a female pedophile teacher has sex with a male student, society considers him lucky. When a man claims a woman raped him, society can’t even fathom how such a thing is possible. In reality, rape is not a gendered issue and has never been. The fact that you are only ever shown male rapists and female victims does not mean this is reality. The fact of the matter is, I care about victims of physical and sexual violence regardless of their genitalia, or the genitalia of their attacker. And if you don’t, then don’t go calling me the sexist.

          • JonathanNathan

            I’ll repeat what I said before: “Nobody’s saying men never get raped, guy. But you wouldn’t ask an environmentalist group to make an issue of male rape victims. Why are you expecting feminist groups to do it?”

          • Alex Reynard

            >Nobody’s saying men never get raped, guy.

            Actually, the law kinda says that, buddy. At least a man is never raped by a women. But they do it to themselves in prison so we don’t have to care because it’s their own fault (oh wait it turns out it’s mostly guards raping inmates whoops). http://boingboing.net/2009/06/25/guards-are-the-worst.html

            >But you wouldn’t ask an environmentalist group to make an issue of male
            rape victims. Why are you expecting feminist groups to do it?

            1) Because they will almost always say that feminism is about “equality”, full stop, and obviously you cannot achieve gender equality by focusing solely on the issues of one gender. 2) Many feminists have said that there doesn’t need to be a men’s rights movement because feminism will solve those problems for men. If so, I’m waiting. 3) The current public perception of rape is due largely to feminism’s awareness campaigns over the past decades; campaigns which have consistently tried to pain the picture of overwhelmingly female victims and overwhelmingly male rapists, which simply is not true. I don’t blame them for wanting to see female victims listened to, but now they need to correct the damage they’ve done and make sure the public sees male victims and female rapists (and false accusers of any gender) as well.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Actually, the law kinda says that, buddy. At least a man is never raped by a women.”–Citation? For the assertion that a man cannot be raped by a woman in the eyes of the law?

            “Because they will almost always say that feminism is about “equality”, full stop, and obviously you cannot achieve gender equality by focusing solely on the issues of one gender.”–Given that one gender currently holds the balance of power, yes, that’s exactly how you achieve it.

            “Many feminists have said that there doesn’t need to be a men’s rights movement because feminism will solve those problems for men.”–It probably will. Change doesn’t happen overnight. In the meantime, the “men’s rights” movement is such an obviously misogynistic one I can’t really believe that you’re seriously trying to defend it.

            “The current public perception of rape is due largely to feminism’s awareness campaigns over the past decades; campaigns which have consistently tried to pain the picture of overwhelmingly female victims and overwhelmingly male rapists, which simply is not true.”–Do you live your life in fear of sexual violence? Don’t answer that, because I already know that you don’t. Neither do I. Women, however, do. And they have for decades, well before any “awareness campaigns” forced men to acknowledge reality. So yeah, feminists have tended to focus on the kind of rape that has ruined half the species’ lives for quite a long time now.

            “I don’t blame them for wanting to see female victims listened to, but now they need to correct the damage they’ve done and make sure the public sees male victims and female rapists (and false accusers of any gender) as well.”–They’ve done no such damage. Female-on-male rape wasn’t acknowledged before feminism. Post-feminism, I’ll concede that we probably still don’t talk about it as much as we should, but I would submit that we do talk about it more than we did before feminism.

            “false accusers”–There are about as many “false rape accusers” as there are “welfare queens.” Which is to say a statistically insignificant number of them. These are narratives invented by conservatives to use as weapons against women and against the social safety net, and the fact that you buy into one of them is a dead giveaway of your real political leanings.

          • Alex Reynard

            >Citation? For the assertion that a man cannot be raped by a woman in the eyes of the law?

            For starters there’s this: http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/attorney-general-eric-holder-announces-revisions-to-the-uniform-crime-reports-definition-of-rape That definition of rape absolutely precludes a woman raping a man. And while I know that in some places women *can* be charged with rape, what matters more in a practical sense is how often prosecutors actually do so. And all you have to do is look at the news to see how often that happens.

            >Given that one gender currently holds the balance of power, yes, that’s exactly how you achieve it.

            Why do you believe this? While it’s true that there are still more men in leadership positions, women make up the majority of the electorate.

            >It probably will. Change doesn’t happen overnight.

            Given that feminism has never, in many decades, shown any inclination towards doing anything for men unless it’s a secondary consequence of helping women, why should I have any faith that this will change?

            >In the meantime, the “men’s rights” movement is such an obviously misogynistic one I can’t really believe that you’re seriously trying to defend it.

            I’d love to know why you believe the MRM is “obviously misogynistic” and who told you so.

            >Do you live your life in fear of sexual violence? Don’t answer that, because I already know that you don’t.

            Well you’re presumptuous. Actually, I do. Because I know that I live in a country that has the highest prison population in the world. And that if I ever get sent to jail, there’s a very high likelihood that I will be raped and that no one will do anything to stop it.

            >Neither do I. Women, however, do. And they have for decades, well before any “awareness campaigns” forced men to acknowledge reality.

            Are you saying that fear of a crime is an accurate predictor of the actual probability of that crime happening?

            So yeah, feminists have tended to focus on the kind of rape that has ruined half the species’ lives for quite a long time now.

            Are you saying that rape only affects one gender?

            >They’ve done no such damage. Female-on-male rape wasn’t acknowledged before feminism. Post-feminism, I’ll concede that we probably still don’t talk about it as much as we should, but I would submit that we do talk about it more than we did before feminism.

            We also talk about the internet more than before feminism, but that doesn’t mean feminism is responsible for the internet. You cannot say that correlation equals causation whenever it supports your position. The fact of the matter is that, yes, male rape victims have always been invisible because the very idea is uncomfortable. But feminism had a golden opportunity, while raising awareness on the subject, to Truly Demonstrate Equality by raising awareness of male victims too. They failed to. If we are going to claim that fewer women are raped now due to feminism’s consciousness-raising (and I’ll absolutely concede that), then we also have to acknowledge that there are male victims that might have been helped by the same campaigns but were not.

            >There are about as many “false rape accusers” as
            there are “welfare queens.” Which is to say a statistically
            insignificant number of them.

            Here’s a female attorney saying differently: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20030811_spilbor.html

            >These are narratives invented by conservatives to use as weapons against women and against the social safety net, and the fact that you buy into one of them is a dead giveaway of your real political leanings.

            There is one extremely important difference between welfare fraud and false rape accusations: One Of Them Causes FAR More Damage. If someone cheats welfare out of a few hundred dollars, that is *microscopic* compared to the fraud committed by any large corporation that successfully dodges taxes. And maybe the person scamming welfare is doing so because they’ll be dead broke otherwise. But when someone makes a false accusation of rape or pedophilia, the accused’s life is destroyed. They are presumed guilty by the public; a trial will not change that. I have seen cases where prosecutors have ignored evidence proving innocence, and have sentenced men to jail. Where, like I said, they’re likely to be raped. And afterwards, are put on sexual predator lists that make them virtually unemployable. A false accusation is only one step below hiring a hitman in terms of personal damage. If we’re going to consider that aggressively punishing false accusers might dissuade some rape victims from coming forward, we also MUST consider the severity of the suffering that the wrongly accused goes through.

            Also, I came to these conclusions by my own. From watching the news; from seeing how swiftly they presume guilt for anyone accused of a sex crime. How swiftly and totally these people are dehumanized, and we are asked to assume that every single one of them is guilty and that women never lie. I didn’t need some conservative to tell me a bunch of bullshit to get me to believe what I do. It’s possible for two people to come to the same conclusion through completely different lines of reasoning. Conservatives don’t really believe their propaganda; I believe it because by sheer chance they happen to be right about This One Issue for the wrong reasons.

          • JonathanNathan

            “That definition of rape absolutely precludes a woman raping a man.”–No it doesn’t. The clause “without the consent of the victim” modifies each of the actions described previously in the sentence. But nowhere does this definition define “victim” as only the penetratee. If a penetrative act occurs involving a vagina or an anus and one party did not consent, that party would be defined as the victim. The same goes for the oral penetration clause. I can see why one would immediately make an assumption that this definition precludes female rapes of men, but it’s a poor assumption that is not supported by the grammar of the sentence. In fact, further down in the VERY SAME PRESS RELEASE, we find this statement: “The revised definition includes any gender of victim or perpetrator.”

            “And while I know that in some places women *can* be charged with rape, what matters more in a practical sense is how often prosecutors actually do so.”–And do you have an answer for that? How often do they? This is your point, not mine. The burden of proof is on you.

            “And all you have to do is look at the news to see how often that happens.”–That’s actually a very poor measure of anything. I could look at the news and also determine that the United States had never overthrown a democratically elected government, but that would be incorrect.

            “Why do you believe this? While it’s true that there are still more men in leadership positions, women make up the majority of the electorate.”–There are more men in leadership positions. Women are still culturally defined as objects in advertising, film, literature, everything. Women make less on the dollar (and yes, I’ve already seen all the mansplaining justifications, so don’t bother.) You’re really going to tell me that because there are more women on the voter rolls, that somehow means the only reason they’re living a second-class life is that they want to? What, do they dress all pretty because they want to get raped too?

            “Given that feminism has never, in many decades, shown any inclination towards doing anything for men unless it’s a secondary consequence of helping women, why should I have any faith that this will change?”–First of all, again, feminism’s goal is achieving equality between the sexes by eliminating the patriarchy and its associated problems. That does mean that the primary focus is on helping women, because women are the ones who need the help.

            “I’d love to know why you believe the MRM is “obviously misogynistic” and who told you so.”–http://www.bluethenation.com/2013/07/12/the-men-of-reddit/
            http://www.bluethenation.com/2013/06/21/if-you-dont-believe-the-absence-of-feminism-is-misogyny/
            http://www.bluethenation.com/2013/07/07/reddit-misogynists-vs-feminism/

            And I don’t want to hear one fucking word about “Not all MRAs are like that.” Because I believe you MRAs have a term for such an argument. “NAWALT,” I believe it is. Any time someone says “not all women are like that,” he gets dismissed for making a fallacious argument. And rightly so. Exceptions prove a rule, they do not disprove it. That’s why I’ve never made the “not all women are like that” argument; I don’t believe it. I believe the “most women are not like that” argument. If your only response to these links is that not all MRAs are like that, you’re only demonstrating that most of them are.

            “Well you’re presumptuous. Actually, I do. Because I know that I live in a country that has the highest prison population in the world. And that if I ever get sent to jail, there’s a very high likelihood that I will be raped and that no one will do anything to stop it.”–Oh, you spend a lot of time worrying that you’re gonna go to jail, guy with one of the whitest names I’ve ever heard?

            “Are you saying that fear of a crime is an accurate predictor of the actual probability of that crime happening?”–No, I’m not. I’m saying the opposite: the frequency of a crime happening to one specific group is an accurate predictor that the specific group will be afraid of it.

            “Are you saying that rape only affects one gender?”–I’m saying that the prevalence of women being raped by men has ruined the lives of women. You’re trying to invent words that aren’t there.

            “You cannot say that correlation equals causation whenever it supports your position.”–I didn’t say it was necessarily a causal relationship, but what I did say was that you really can’t claim that feminism has damaged the perception of male rape victims when it’s in better shape than it was before feminism.

            “But feminism had a golden opportunity, while raising awareness on the subject, to Truly Demonstrate Equality by raising awareness of male victims too. They failed to.”–This is not a feminist issue. I don’t know how many times I have to say it. It’s not a feminist issue any more than it’s an environmentalist issue or an organized labor issue.

            “If we are going to claim that fewer women are raped now due to feminism’s consciousness-raising (and I’ll absolutely concede that), then we also have to acknowledge that there are male victims that might have been helped by the same campaigns but were not.”–Then start one! Why aren’t the MRAs going around trying to raise awareness of male rape victims? It’s telling that the most highly visible “men’s rights” campaigns have to do with shaming female rape victims, not raising awareness of male rape victims. You guys gussy up your movement with high-minded rhetoric, but it’s not about raising awareness of men’s issues. It’s about shaming women, pure and simple.

            “Here’s a female attorney saying differently:”–I’ll be happy to take a look at a source that isn’t just some random Jane spouting off.

            “And afterwards, are put on sexual predator lists that make them virtually unemployable.”–Which I’m against. I think that’s one of the ugliest elements of our criminal justice system. I know there’s some disagreement on the issue in almost every sphere, but most of the feminists I know and speak to on the subject are as repulsed by those registries as I am. Absolutely repulsed. I would sign on to work for any campaign to get one of those registries repealed. They are heinous, unamerican, vicious, and unjust. They represent everything progressive politics are meant to stand against and I cannot fathom how anyone on the left could support them.

            “we also MUST consider the severity of the suffering that the wrongly accused goes through.”–Statistically, there just aren’t that many of these false accusations, though. The “false accusation” narrative comes much more from men not understanding what rape actually is. Rape is a more broadly defined crime than most men–and women–realize. So when a woman makes an accusation of behavior that is legally defined as rape, the man may consider it a false accusation because he truly does not believe he committed the crime. But that doesn’t mean that he didn’t.

          • Alex Reynard

            -No it doesn’t. The clause “without the consent of the victim” modifies each of the actions described previously in the sentence.

            Allright, I’ll concede that.

            >And do you have an answer for that? How often do they? This is your point, not mine. The burden of proof is on you.

            Yes, but any proof I give you can be as easily dismissed as “Why should I believe this?”. It’s more effective to use practical truths. Tell me: Have you EVER seen, on any news station, an instance of a woman being successfully prosecuted for raping a man? And if you have to do research in order to answer the question, the answer is “no”. Compare that with how often you have seen stories of men being found guilty for raping women.

            >I could look at the news and also determine that the United States had never overthrown a democratically elected government, but that would be incorrect.

            Except that I’ve seen stories like that mentioned on the news many times. Usually several years after the fact when no one is likely to be prosecuted, but the point still stands.

            >Women are still culturally defined as objects in advertising, film, literature, everything.

            And men are given hyperagency. So?

            >Women make less on the dollar (and yes, I’ve already seen all the mansplaining justifications, so don’t bother.)

            It’s not mansplaining to point out research that proves the wage gap vanishes to almost nothing when you consider the pay men and women receive Based On Work Hours Put In.

            >You’re really going to tell me that because there are more women on the voter rolls, that somehow means the only reason they’re living a second-class life is that they want to?

            That presumes they’re living a second-class life.

            >First of all, again, feminism’s goal is achieving equality between the sexes by eliminating the patriarchy

            Why do you believe in the Patriarchy? Personally, I believe that gender roles (created primarily through natural selection and enforced by society) give both advantages and disadvantages to both genders. And that both genders are usually blind to seeing their own privilige. It is not ‘one gender oppressing the other’, it is ‘both genders being rewarded for conforming to gender roles and punished for not conforming’.

            >And I don’t want to hear one fucking word about “Not all MRAs are like that.”

            Too bad. Because the MRM explicitly denounces the Red Pill crowd. They are not MRAs. And unless they specifically identify as such, neither are people who disagree on your articles. Implying that any random misogynist reflects badly on the MRM is as wrong as if I claimed that Lorena Bobbit proves feminists hate men.

            >Oh, you spend a lot of time worrying that you’re gonna go to jail, guy with one of the whitest names I’ve ever heard?

            Have you not noticed that we’re living in a country with so many laws that every citizen (especially if they use a computer) is a criminal every day of their lives? If you’re *not* worried about being sent to prison… why!?

            >No, I’m not. I’m saying the opposite: the frequency of a crime happening to one specific group is an accurate predictor that the specific group will be afraid of it.

            That’s not true. Your point was clearly structured in a way that used women’s fear as proof of the likelihood of their victimization.

            >I’m saying that the prevalence of women being raped by men has ruined the lives of women. You’re trying to invent words that aren’t there.

            No I’m not. You said “feminists have tended to focus on the kind of rape that has ruined half the species’ lives for quite a long time now.” That clearly implies that only one half of the species’ lives are ruined. Which half would that be?

            >You really can’t claim that feminism has damaged the perception of male rape victims when it’s in better shape than it was before feminism.

            ‘The KKK has done nothing to harm black people because black people are doing better now than they were before the civil war.’ This is a terrible argument.

            >This is not a feminist issue. I don’t know how many times I have to say it. It’s not a feminist issue any more than it’s an environmentalist issue or an organized labor issue.

            WHY NOT!? Do you honestly think that it’s possible to eliminate rape culture without bothering to address any of the aspects of it that lead to male sexual violence? Do you actually think that we can solve all the women’s problems and *then* all the men’s problems afterwards, AS IF THEY’RE NOT INTRINSICALLY INTERTWINED!?

            >Then start one! Why aren’t the MRAs going around trying to raise awareness of male rape victims?

            That is literally one of the things MRAs talk about most. Just because the media chooses to focus on a handful of inflammatory posters (which are meant primarily to point out the inherent sexism of the originals) instead of, for instance, MRMs successfully raising money to help a man struggling against a biased family court: http://www.mensrightsedmonton.com/bbq-fundraiser-for-legal-surety-tom-matey/

            >I’ll be happy to take a look at a source that isn’t just some random Jane spouting off.

            “Jonna M. Spilbor is a frequent guest commentator on Court-TV and other television news networks, where she has covered many of the nation’s high-profile criminal trials. In the courtroom, she has handled hundreds of cases as a criminal defense attorney, and also served in the San Diego City Attorney’s Office, Criminal Division, and the Office of the United States Attorney in the Drug Task Force and Appellate units. In 1998, she earned certification as a Court Appointed Special Advocate with the San Diego Juvenile Court. She is a graduate of Thomas Jefferson School of Law, where she was a member of the Law Review.”

            You dare talk about women being objectified, then you completely dismiss a woman’s arguments with “some random Jane” because they’re not what you want to hear!?

            >I know there’s some disagreement on the issue in almost every sphere, but most of the feminists I know and speak to on the subject are as repulsed by those registries as I am.

            Good. Then they should also support making sure that no innocent people are ever put on those lists.

            >So when a woman makes an accusation of behavior that is legally defined as rape, the man may consider it a false accusation because he truly does not believe he committed the crime. But that doesn’t mean that he didn’t.

            I have NEVER IN MY LIFE seen any man say anything even slightly close to that. We are not talking about rapists who don’t understand what they did; we are talking about people who are Actually Innocent And Are Sent To Prison Anyway. When the term ‘false accusation’ is used, I have never seen it mean anything other than ‘an accusation which is a deliberate lie.’

            And it doesn’t matter how statistically often this happens. Statistically, cases of strangers abducting, raping and killing children are extremely rare. One article I read found only FIVE such cases in a single year. No one with a functioning conscience would argue that the rarity of this crime means it should be ignored. No one with a functioning conscience should use this same argument against false sex crime accusations.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Yes, but any proof I give you can be as easily dismissed as “Why should I believe this?”.”–I’ll believe it if it’s believable. Not only that, but I have no vested interest in not believing it. I just want to know what your answer is.

            “Tell me: Have you EVER seen, on any news station, an instance of a woman being successfully prosecuted for raping a man?”–No, but I don’t really watch or read that particular kind of news. I pretty much ignore that. It’s not an issue to me. When someone gets raped that’s a criminal case and not particularly a news story. It becomes a news story if someone gets raped and nothing gets done about it. Again, I ask you: can you cite evidence that there are men being raped and nothing being done about it?

            “Except that I’ve seen stories like that mentioned on the news many times.”–On the news? Really? I sure don’t come across those stories.

            “Why do you believe in the Patriarchy? Personally, I believe that gender roles (created primarily through natural selection and enforced by society) give both advantages and disadvantages to both genders. And that both genders are usually blind to seeing their own privilige. It is not ‘one gender oppressing the other’, it is ‘both genders being rewarded for conforming to gender roles and punished for not conforming’.”–I disagree. I see my privilege perfectly well. I do not see any particular disadvantages.

            “Have you not noticed that we’re living in a country with so many laws that every citizen (especially if they use a computer) is a criminal every day of their lives? If you’re *not* worried about being sent to prison… why!?”–Again, you show your Randian allegiances here. I’m not worried about being sent to prison because I haven’t done anything that warrants it.

            “That clearly implies that only one half of the species’ lives are ruined. Which half would that be?”–The half that’s more likely to be raped.

            “This is a terrible argument.”–It’s also not my argument.

            “WHY NOT!? Do you honestly think that it’s possible to eliminate rape culture without bothering to address any of the aspects of it that lead to male sexual violence?”–I think those aspects will be mitigated when rape culture itself–which is far more dangerous to women than it is to men–is mitigated.

            “which are meant primarily to point out the inherent sexism of the originals”–There was no such sexism in the originals.

            “MRMs successfully raising money to help a man struggling against a biased family court”–Family courts are not, as a rule, biased. Primary custody is awarded to primary caretakers. If you want primary custody after the divorce, be the primary caretaker before the divorce.

            “You dare talk about women being objectified, then you completely dismiss a woman’s arguments with “some random Jane” because they’re not what you want to hear!?”–I don’t care who she is. I want evidence, not one person’s opinion.

            “No one with a functioning conscience would argue that the rarity of this crime means it should be ignored. No one with a functioning conscience should use this same argument against false sex crime accusations.”–I’m not ignoring it. But I am saying that the issue is distinct from the issues which concern a movement dedicated to eliminating the patriarchy.

          • Alex Reynard

            I’m leaving this conversation because I’m tired. And because you completely repulse me. There is no point in arguing with someone who does not give an inch; who will not concede a single point, no matter how minor. That is what you are doing. This is not a dialogue. It is me presenting my position and you telling me, “No it’s wrong. No it’s wrong.” And of course, never admitting when you are wrong, even when I present you with your own words proving it. “No I didn’t. No I didn’t.” I could be having this same conversation with a machine for all the good it’s doing me.

            But one last thing: “I don’t care who she is. I want evidence, not one person’s opinion.” Maybe you should read the article and look at her evidence then, you honorless sack of slime.

          • JonathanNathan

            Oh you’re such a flirt.

        • Bastet

          Both male and female circumcision are reprehensible acts in the same manner as assault and murder are reprehensible acts.

          The severity of one does not nullify the other. Equally true they are not on a par in terms of brutality and consequences any more than repeated torture is the same as a one off assault.

          Male circumcision can reduce sexual pleasure. It can also cause pain upon having sex. This is worthy of political attention and law repeal. It definitely deserves to be made illegal.

          Female circumcision can cause hemorrhage at the time of the attack (I will not call it a proceedure given the absence of a hospital, surgical instruments, a medical professional and a sterile environment). It can cause death by infection weeks, months or years post attack. It can cause permanent pain every second of every day irrespective of sexual activity. Some cultures sew the mutilated genitals up afterward and then take a knife to the vagina as part of the de-virginising of s bride on her wedding night and then re-sew her upon pregnancy! This can cause death of shock upon having sex. It can cause menstrual blood to get stuck in the vaginal canal that leads to infection and death. If this is all survived the womsn is then faced woth traumatic labour and birthing with an increased risk of dying.

          I cannot, for the life of me, understand how MRA’s could consider these two experiences to be of equal pain and suffering and expect feminists to ignote brutality against women and girls to refocus attention on a medical assault against boys while the MRA’s themselves, sit back doing diddly squat.

          • Alex Reynard

            I agree fully with the first four paragraphs, then I’m scratching my head at the end.

            >I cannot, for the life of me, understand how MRA’s could consider these
            two experiences to be of equal pain and suffering

            We don’t.

            >and expect feminists
            to ignote brutality against women and girls to refocus attention on a
            medical assault against boys

            We don’t.

            Most of the time, our argument is your first paragraph; that these two things are both bad, and just because one is less bad than the other doesn’t mean it’s illegal. (Though some people point out that there are actually many different types of circumcision, so comparing the most sanitary kind of male circ to the most barbaric kind of female circ is a bit uneven. Remember; boys undergo painful tribal circumcisions in some places too.) And absolutely *nobody* is saying that female circumcision should be ignored. Instead we’re saying, “You can care about both at the same time, it’s not difficult.”

            Reducing the cases of male circumcision would probably be incredibly easy compared to other forms of child abuse. Since, like you said, most of them are performed in hospitals nowadays and there’s no ritualistic or sexual drive behind them. Make it against the law and most doctors will follow the law. It wouldn’t solve the problem entirely but it’d be a good first step.

            >while the MRA’s themselves, sit back doing
            diddly squat.

            Ummm… I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but feminism has a bit of a head start. By several decades. And it currently has unfathomably more political power and fundraising power than us. Whereas most people haven’t even heard of the MRM, or if they have it’s the worst possible stereotypes of what we are, pushed by people trying to discredit us as evil rape-loving misogynist demons. Right now, all the MRM is *capable* of is raising awareness. There’s some tentative attempts at tangible results going on, especially in Canada, but for the moment all we can really do is raise our voice and hope to establish ourselves as a legitimate movement.

          • Bastet

            A well-worded petition can be placed on care.com or change.org. You can also hit the streets to get signatures.

            Law reform starts with action.

            I’m not in the States, so I don’t know how prevalent make circumcision is there. Here, in NZ, it’s very rare. That wasn’t the case 40 years ago. Pretty much, men born in the early 1970′s or earlier are more likely to be circumcised. Men born mid 1970′s to mid 1990′s a little less so. Now, it is highly unusual.

            That was changed by petition (I wasn’t born then but it is part of sex ed over here)

          • Bastet

            I must admit the only MRA’s I’ve ever come across are misogynists and trolls, more interested in undermining feminists, name calling, putting down all women, calling male feminists mangina’s, and literally doing nothing for anyone. If you are not anti-woman, anti-feminist and are actually trying to effect positive change for the whole of society by addressing male inequality then great.

          • Alex Reynard

            >A well-worded petition can be placed on care.com or change.org. You can also hit the streets to get signatures.

            I believe Men’s Rights Edmonton has been doing things like that.

            >I’m not in the States, so I don’t know how prevalent make circumcision is there.

            Tons. It’s pretty much by default. My own foreskin’s gone because the doctor got my mom to agree to it basically by lying to her. She’s told me she wouldn’t have let him if she’d been better-informed.

            >That was changed by petition

            Hopefully that’ll happen eventually. Right now, it seems like the biggest obstacle is guys who’ve been circumcised who are incredibly defensive about it.

      • Joel

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2338427/This-time-sisterhood-Women-need-angry-rape-liars-like-Linsey-Attridge–shes-abusing-says-Peter-Lloyd.html

        From an article that was cited in these comments:

        “In 2010, an official enquiry report led by Baroness Stern – a prison reform campaigner – ordered Harman to stop misleading the public about rape statistics. For years she’d been pumping misinformation that only six per cent of rapists are brought to justice, when the reality is actually very different.
        Actually, the rate is more like two in three – a figure which is much higher than comparable numbers for other violent crimes. Yet still we are told that only 4 per cent of rape attacks go to court.”

        • JonathanNathan

          1) Typical Daily Mail. He completely misrepresents what the report says, as well as what anti-rape activists like Harman have said.
          2) Not an article, but an opinion piece.
          3) UK, not US.
          4) The Stern Report did not show what the author claims. It showed that 58% of cases that reach the courts result in conviction. But the report also found that only 14% of rapes result in conviction. What he seems to be ignoring, almost deliberately, is the difference between how many rapes occur and how many reach the court system.

  • Robert Mariani

    Equal rights are awesome, but doctrinaire diatribes like “you’re an oppressor
    if you’re male” aren’t. The entire narrative of a “patriarchy” existing
    and even worse, being -behind- things like rape, is just an Alex
    Jones-tier conspiracy theory. It seems like modern feminism is aware of
    its faded relevance and thus finds more and more ludicrous things to
    revolt against to create the illusion of a persisting great struggle.

    The thing about saying stuff like “we have a rape culture” is that making bold claims
    requires bold proof, no matter how de rigueur it is in Hollywood or how
    righteously indignant they make you sound. Why the hell is rape illegal
    then? I am pretty sure it’s been illegal as long as laws have existed.
    Is it the eternal grace of the feminist over-soul that is locked in a
    karmic battle with the hollow earth zionist patriarchy new world order?
    Is there is also a “murder culture” because someone on the internet once
    commented that a murder victim deserved it?

    There is no conspiracy behind rape, and nobody except perhaps rapists thinks it’s an acceptable thing to do. There is also no domestic violence conspiracy, it just happens because assholes are assholes. Same with murder. No murder conspiracy created by a shadow government that just loves murder for some fucking reason.

    But yeah, as soon as the average feminist rolls her/his/its eyes at terms
    like “patriarchy” and “rape culture”, sign me up as a male feminist.

  • Robert Mariani

    Equal rights are awesome, but doctrinaire diatribes like “you’re an oppressor
    if you’re male” aren’t. The entire narrative of a “patriarchy” existing
    and even worse, being -behind- things like rape, is just an Alex
    Jones-tier conspiracy theory. It seems like modern feminism is aware of
    its faded relevance and thus finds more and more ludicrous things to
    revolt against to create the illusion of a persisting great struggle.

    The thing about saying stuff like “we have a rape culture” is that making bold claims
    requires bold proof, no matter how de rigueur it is in Hollywood or how
    righteously indignant they make you sound. Why the hell is rape illegal
    then? I am pretty sure it’s been illegal as long as laws have existed.
    Is it the eternal grace of the feminist over-soul that is locked in a
    karmic battle with the hollow earth zionist patriarchy new world order?
    Is there is also a “murder culture” because someone on the internet once
    commented that a murder victim deserved it?

    There is no conspiracy behind rape, and nobody except perhaps rapists
    thinks it’s an acceptable thing to do. There is also no domestic
    violence conspiracy, it just happens because assholes are assholes. Same
    with murder. No murder conspiracy created by a shadow government that
    just loves murder for some fucking reason.

    But yeah, as soon as the average feminist rolls her/his/its eyes at terms
    like “patriarchy” and “rape culture”, sign me up as a male feminist.

  • Matthew E. Duffy

    i awomen eye rapedme today.
    it was really creepy. acutally it happend twice. .
    freedom and equality suck.

  • potus

    Hey girl, I’m heading off to Thailand so I don’t have to deal with this feminist bull shit and have sex with REAL FEMININE WOMEN.

    • JonathanNathan

      Hey girl, that’s just precious, but no one cares.

  • Gowan Stephens

    An extraordinarily well-written and on-the-mark article. I would ask Will Geddes what message he would get if a strange woman tells him he is good-looking. What if that woman is twice your age? What if she is totally unappealing to you? Would you ever feel anything other than, “What a nice person!” There are times when this is the case, but women know so many other cases where there is other intent, and can tell the difference. Anyway, he didn’t say “don’t ever tell a girl she looks pretty”.
    Thank you Jonathan Nathan–you have my respect and admiration. Please keep up the good work!

  • Paul Muriello

    Using the Gosling meme in the manner you did misses the point of why Henderson used that meme in the first place. Also, # 3 is garbage; women in positions of power are more competent than their male counterparts because they had to be more competent in order to bust through the glass ceiling. If we remove the glass ceiling (which we ought to), women would be no more likely to be more competent than their male counterparts.

    Other than that, decent article!

  • Alfred

    “1) There is absolutely no moral argument against feminism. Not one.” … “If you have an argument that runs counter to that, then fuck you. You’re a bad person.”

    How could you commit views this intellectually arrogant and black-and-white to print?

    You aren’t even aware that “feminism is for equality” is a normative definition, not a descriptive one. Or if you are, you’re deliberately ignoring this so that you can write in simplistic terms about it. If “equality” were all it took, Rush Limbaugh could say that he was for “equality” and therefor a feminist.

    A descriptive definition of feminism goes something like “women are disadvantaged compared to men in ways xyz, and these disadvantages need to be corrected.” If you do not believe in these disadvantages it’s difficult to call yourself a “feminist” at all.

    • JonathanNathan

      “How could you commit views this intellectually arrogant and black-and-white to print?”–First of all, you’re editing VERY selectively. In fact, splicing those two sentences together in this fashion is a common ploy among men who dislike what I’ve written here. Second, I didn’t study whatever you studied in college, so you’re going to need to explain to me why a “normative definition,” which in this case actually seeks to define the term concretely, is inferior to a “descriptive definition,” which as you outline it is not even a definition.

      “If you do not believe in these disadvantages it’s difficult to call yourself a “feminist” at all.”–And why, exactly, are you under the impression that I don’t believe in these disadvantages?

      • Alfred

        Writing “…” between sentences is understood to mean that two sentences occur separately. They are not “spliced” together. I put the “if you believe this you’re a bad person” sentence after the “there is no moral argument against feminism” sentence because it’s on a level of intellectual arrogance similar to the sentence that precedes it; no one misunderstands how you’re being presented and thinks they relate to each other when they are getting to my comment by reading the article, it’s obvious that you meant “if you have an argument that runs counter to [equality]“, not “if you have an argument that runs counter to feminism”, but it’s still very arrogant because of how you’ve treated “feminism” as equivalent to “equality.”

        You should really be googling these things if you don’t understand them before demanding the person you’re responding to should explain them; a googling of “normative definition of feminism” leads you to http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-topics/#NorDesCom which describes this concept clearly.

        That said, I’ll explain it anyway because I can’t stand it when other people lazily let a hyperlink do their work for them. A normative definition is the opposite of trying to define the term “concretely.” A normative definition is a definition of what you want something to be, as opposed to what it is; a descriptive definition merely describes something as it is. If you define feminism as “women having the same rights as everyone else”, then someone like Rush Limbaugh could say “sure, I am a feminist; they already do have those rights, and we should keep them preserved.” Your response would probably be something like “no they don’t”, which shifts the claim you’re trying to demonstrate from “we should be for equality” to “women are unequal”. So obviously, you want to define it in terms of what you believe is the case (that women have disadvantages), not what you believe after you believe women are disadvantaged (that the disadvantages should be corrected).

        It’s pretty clear that you believe these disadvantages exist, but you’re not describing feminism as this, you’re describing it with the nebulous normative concept of “equality”, which presumes you belief in those disadvantages, while ignoring that different views of things like “equality” (and “progress” and so on) exist.

        I didn’t want to do this, but if you’re still uncertain about what I’m trying to say, I wrote an article about this a while back on this very usage. http://wp.me/p2BKma-4J

        If you’re still on the fence about this, consider:

        “libertarianism just means you like liberty and feel like their personal property should be safe.”

        This follows the same structure as how you have defined feminism in #1, but for a very different ideology that you probably oppose. It’s an equally flawed definition because it defines itself normatively, not descriptively.

        • JonathanNathan

          OK dude. If what you need is to get mad at an article explicitly designed to reach out to men who don’t know much about feminist thinking for being a little broad on the subject of definitions and not delving deeply into feminist theory, fine. Go ahead.

  • ziggyplayguitar hero

    Thank you very much for this, but must of all thanks for writing about how stupid unbelievably boring and old the friendzone joke is getting. Really people, just because you have been nice to someone doesnt mean that person is obligated to love you. Maybe if you can’t get a girlfriend think that is probably because you are a sexist asshole.

  • alia34
  • politicalcynic

    Five reasons NOT to be a “feminist man:

    1. More men will be raped. Only feminists legalize the rape of men. The more male feminists there are, the more legal male rape will be-just look at India; In fact, many feminists writers expressed support for a recent TV scene in which a man was forced to perform oral sex on a woman after she bashed his head into a car window.

    2. Fathers will no longer have access to their children. Only feminists oppose equal parenting laws. NOW has consistently opposed these laws. The more feminists there are, the more fathers will be seen as nothing more than walking ATM’s.
    3. Men will be freely abused with no help. Only feminists believe that men are not victims of domestic violence. Over 800,000 men were victims of DV at the hands of women in the US last year-but there are almost no services for them-and feminists SUPPORT laws that limit available services to men.
    4. Men will no longer be educated. Boys are having a far harder time in school than girls, and recent studies show female teachers consistently grade boys more harshly than girls. Over sixty percent of all college students are female. Yet only feminists oppose efforts to educate boys (they recent protested an effort in Edmonton to address this issue) and only feminists seek to have men thrown out of colleges with NO due process based solely on a woman alleging some form of harassment.
    5. Men will continue to be treated as nothing but “objects” for female support. SIXTY percent of all US wealth is controlled by women-NOT men. Men, who represent 49 percent of the population, now control just 40 percent of US wealth, and make only 20 percent of all buying decisions. The “oppressed minority” has the money. And they want more.

    Any questions? Because, by the way, EVERY one of those statements can be proven.

    • JonathanNathan

      1. OK, I’m gonna need to see the source for this claim that feminists want to legalize the rape of men.

      2. The research is well-established on the issue of joint custody: it’s a bad idea. Whoever was the primary caregiver (which is distinct from breadwinner) during the marriage should retain custody, whether that’s the mother or the father. This doesn’t mean that the other parent should not have access to the child, but joint custody is bad for children. Of course, the best way to keep custody of your kids is to not end up in a divorce, but that’s obviously too much to expect.

      3. Actually feminists do not believe that. And feminists do not support laws that limit services to men. That’s an absurd statement which ignores plain fact.

      4. Are you dense or something? Feminists do not oppose efforts to educate boys, nor do they favor throwing someone out of college based on unsubstantiated allegations.

      5. Aaaaaaaaaaaand you’re lying.

      By the way, if you hate women so much (and you clearly do, as you blame not just feminists, but women as a whole, for these phantom problems), why not be gay? You’d never have to put up with a woman again.

      • politicalcynic

        1. The Law in India and information thereon can be found here: http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/a-sad-day-for-male-rape-victims-in-india/ I has been well reported that the law in India now does not recognize male rape victims. And the evidence also shows that this was at the behest of feminist organizations that opposed a recommendation that the law be made gender neutral.

        2. THAT is a stereotype. There is more than enough evidence to show that fathers are essential to their well-being. I need valid source material for YOUR claim. I see none. In fact, that is exactly the logic that has led to a situation in which the vast majority of divorces are initiated by women (2/3) and in 85 percent of the cases they end up with custody. Men virtually NEVER get custody-they simply end up with child support.

        3. Really? Then where are the DV shelters for the 800K MEN who were victims of DV last year in the US? Where are the feminists demanding EQUAL access for men to DV services? Why are feminsits so angry at the man in New England who has had to SUE for gender discrimination because he was refused help with facial reconstructive surgery after being a DV victim-because the services were only for women? Where are the feminists demanding justice for him? Or try this: http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/01/30/a-hidden-crime-domestic-violence-against-men-is-a-growing-probl/

        4. Really? Then why did feminists go to the DOJ to STOP universities from tryhing to recruit men? Why did feminists recently protest a meeting to address the education of boys in schools? Why were efforts to try educating boys using non-co educational teaching blocked by feminists? Where are the feminist organizations backing efforts to improve education for boys? Where are the pamphlets being sent home from schools talking about working with your boys to teach them? Why are boys more likely to drop out of school than girls? Why do studies show FEMALE teachers grade boys more harshly? Your source for YOUR claim? Actions speak louder than words-and protesting organizations that meet to talk about better education for boys pretty much says it all, doesn’t it? Feminists did that in BOTH Toronto and Edmonton recently.

        5. Start here: http://www.thewealthchannel.com/wealth-accumulation/articles/women-and-money. Or here: Women are earning, spending, and influencing spending at a greater rate
        than ever before. In fact, women account for $7 trillion in consumer and business spending in the United States, and over the next decade, they will control two thirds of consumer wealth. http://thenextweb.com/socialmedia/2012/01/24/the-top-30-stats-you-need-to-know-when-marketing-to-women/

        Must be tough to be THAT oppressed, mustn’t it?

        Ahhh, you’re lying is the response of feminists who do not want the truth to be known. Actions-not words. I see ACTIONS. I see rape laws defined to exclude men. I see fathers treated as walking ATM’s while NOW opposes equal parenting laws. I see one man in the US abused every 38 seconds with NO services available. I see feminists in California who, when the DV laws led to a massive increase in the arrest of women rewriting the laws so that they favored arresting men. You might try more research and less listening to propaganda. Where are YOUR sources?

        • JonathanNathan

          1) Neither you nor I have the requisite cultural context necessary for understanding this discussion in India. Because we’re not from India. Sure, it looks problematic, but neither one of us has any grasp of how these words are interpreted and discussed within the cultural and linguistic context. I think it’s notable that you couldn’t find a single example of this sort of thing occurring in any cultural context that you and I could discuss, such as the UK or the US.

          2) Of course it’s good for a child to have a father around. Just like it’s good to have a mother around. That’s (one of the reasons) why divorce sucks. But joint custody–splitting time between homes, living two lives, feeling torn between two parents–is unequivocally bad for the child and absolutely every text on the subject will confirm this. Now I do not argue that women should always get custody. I argue that the primary caregiver should always get custody. If that’s the father, so be it. If that’s the mother, so be it.

          3) First of all, the first major study on the impact of DV on male victims was conducted by two VERY feminist researchers, Denise Hines and Emily Douglas. Second, the linked article manipulates the data. Half of all domestic violence cases may involve an exchange of blows, but who initiated the exchange? Third, nobody is angry at the guy for wanting services. The concern is that services for women who have survived domestic violence are intended to be safe spaces where men can’t go. No mainstream feminist would oppose the creation and full funding of services for male survivors of domestic violence.

          4) Those first three things didn’t happen.

          “Where are the feminist organizations backing efforts to improve education for boys?”–Dude, that’s not a feminist issue of high priority. You might as well ask why Greenpeace isn’t focusing on that. I’m sure feminist organizations would love to see boys get a good education but advocating for that is not their mission.

          “Why are boys more likely to drop out of school than girls?”–Because the culture has failed to present young boys and young men with a workable, enlightened masculine identity.

          “Why do studies show FEMALE teachers grade boys more harshly?”–The same reason male teachers grade girls more harshly and all teachers grade people of different ethnic backgrounds harshly: Human beings are tribal and distrust difference. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s just that we’re all kind of crappy that way.

          “Feminists did that in BOTH Toronto and Edmonton recently.”–Again, that’s not what happened. You’re distorting reality.

          5) Hilariously, the first link actually DISPROVES what you’re arguing. The second one cites no sources. It just makes random, baseless claims.

  • @SarcasticSloth

    My number one reason to not be a male feminist.
    1. My privilege and I don’t care about issues that don’t affect us.

    Being said I understand the issues with rape and victim blaming. Other than that though I’ll continue to use the word “slut” to describe women who have had more sex than me and If they want more representation in video games and comic books I’ll say just watch anime and read books instead.

    • JonathanNathan

      Wow, what a douche.

      • @SarcasticSloth

        Is it not true though? Sure I may empathize with them but I’ll never understand why they get so offended over trivial things.

        I do my part by not raping women and holding women to the same standard as any other human being. But I wouldn’t be foolish enough to think that somone’s sexual history doesn’t matter, or that fiction is an accurate portrayal of society’s standards.

        • JonathanNathan

          “Sure I may empathize with them but I’ll never understand why they get so offended over trivial things.”–So in other words, “Sure I may empathize with them but I’ll never empathize with them.”

          “But I wouldn’t be foolish enough to think that somone’s sexual history doesn’t matter”–First of all, I can’t help but notice that you only said you would use the term “slut” to refer to a WOMAN who has had more sex than you. Second, you use it to refer to women who have had more sex than YOU, meaning you define appropriate sexuality entirely based on you and your penis. Third, why DOES someone’s sexual history matter?

          “or that fiction is an accurate portrayal of society’s standards.”–Are you dense or something?

          • @SarcasticSloth

            Woah bro, lay off the Tumblr speak.

            “I may empathize with them but I’ll never empathize with them” Yes, I mean wow, how can someone form opinions? You’re either 100% for or against feminism amirite?
            I agree on their positions pertaning to rape and victim blaming. I’m apathetic towards slut shaming, and I think criticizing fiction and advertisements makes their movement into something hilarious.

            Well of course I define my sexuality by what me and my penis are comfortable with. Do I not have the right to say “I don’t want to be with you because I think you’re too slutty”?

            “Why DOES someone’s sexual history matter?”
            Depends on the relationship being made. sure it doesn’t matter when it comes to friends, but it sure does matter when it comes to love. Nobody wants to end up with someone who can’t be satisfied with just one person.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Woah bro, lay off the Tumblr speak.”–Tumblr? The thing where people share pictures of their favorite movie characters or whatever? I don’t really know what “Tumblr speak” is, but given your avatar and your apparent enjoyment of anime, I’m guessing you know allllllll about it. Are you taking a break from writing slash fiction to piss and moan at me?

            “You’re either 100% for or against feminism amirite?”–You are either a person or you are not. You are either a male or you are not. You are either a life form or you are not. You are either a 32-year-old or you are not. You are either a man with a beard or you are not. You are either a vegetarian or you are not. You are either a feminist or you are not. This is not difficult. Try to keep up.

            “I agree on their positions pertaning to rape and victim blaming.”–How magnanimous of you, given that “you and your privilege” don’t care about issues that don’t pertain to you. Your words, not mine.

            “I think criticizing fiction and advertisements makes their movement into something hilarious.”–Of course you do. That’s the part of the movement that would require you to actually do some examination of yourself and acknowledge that some of the things you enjoy are problematic. But I’m confident that you’ll get there once you grow up.

            “Well of course I define my sexuality by what me and my penis are comfortable with.”–Not really what I said. Stay in school, kiddo. What I said is that you appear to define appropriate sexuality based on you and your penis. Not unlike people who are homophobic because they themselves are not gay.

            “Do I not have the right to say “I don’t want to be with you because I think you’re too slutty”?”–Yes, you have the RIGHT to say it. But you’re an asshole if you say it, and if you think it. Also, you’re kind of not doing yourself any favors, because experienced sexual partners are a GOOD thing.

            “Nobody wants to end up with someone who can’t be satisfied with just one person.”–You haven’t had a lot of sex, have you? The reason I say that is that you seem to be unaware that many people can have had a lot of sexual partners in their lives–even one-night stands! Scandalous!–and also be capable of monogamy. In fact, I would venture to say that describes most people.

          • @SarcasticSloth

            I say tumblr because It’s the better alternative to someone who incorporates memes into their argument.

            Good job being cissexist with your attempt at demonstrating absolutism, you’re a real credit to feminists everywhere bro.

            I can empathize with rape and victim blaming while still being privileged I mean everyone has some sense of what it is to be violated and the unfairness of having something you had no control over being blamed upon you. I don’t get objections to fiction since there’s this thing called “Cognitive Dissonance” that’s required for fiction to work in the first place. Entertainment is simply that, entertainment. Nothing “problematic” about it.

            As for the final part the CDC has a wonderful study showing the amount of sexual partners people have been with, how long their relationship has lasted, and the correlation between the two. Go figure it was the virgins and the people with one to three partners who had longer lasting more satisfying relationships. So please do tell how someone who’s more “experienced” is better in any way other than the bed?

            And yes they’re capable of monogamy, but they’re not very successful at maintaining it.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Good job being cissexist with your attempt at demonstrating absolutism, you’re a real credit to feminists everywhere bro.”–Good try, but there’s a difference between “male” and “man.” Swing and a miss!

            “I don’t get objections to fiction since there’s this thing called “Cognitive Dissonance” that’s required for fiction to work in the first place. Entertainment is simply that, entertainment. Nothing “problematic” about it.”–Whatever you need to tell yourself. If you don’t understand how fiction can influence minds, I’m frankly shocked you have the necessary brainpower to spell “cognitive.”

            “As for the final part the CDC has a wonderful study showing the amount of sexual partners people have been with, how long their relationship has lasted, and the correlation between the two.”–Hey, guess what isn’t the same thing as causation?

            “Go figure it was the virgins and the people with one to three partners who had longer lasting more satisfying relationships.”–Nothing satisfying about having sex with someone that doesn’t know how to do it. I have to assume the reason they have longer-lasting relationships is that the bar is so low for satisfaction. They have no idea how much is out there.

            “And yes they’re capable of monogamy, but they’re not very successful at maintaining it.”–Or perhaps they just have a more exacting standard for their partners. If you’re not good at fucking, that’s going to be a pretty serious mark against you if your partner likes to fuck. Good sex is part of a good relationship. I feel like I’m talking to someone who’s never really had either.

          • @SarcasticSloth

            Care to bring out the evidence that fiction influences a person’s worldview? Or are you just one of those who seriously believes that someone who plays Grand Theft Auto is going to shoot up a school?

            Oh wait, you can’t even begin to comprehend the basics of fiction. Not surprising for someone who can only think in absolutes.

            Also care to provide evidence that isn’t anecdotal?

            Does sex matter in a relationship? Yes, but it’s insignificant compared to communication and compromise. Sluts tend to do neither one of those, thus it’s safe to assume they’re unfit for a successful relationship. Unless by your standards something kinky like having her give you a prostate massage counts as a successful relationship.

            Now if you excuse me I’ll continue to gauge people on the content of their character. I’m sure their ability to fuck is great for casual flings, and if that makes you happy. More power to you.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Care to bring out the evidence that fiction influences a person’s worldview?”–How about the entirety of American culture? Our entire sense of ourselves–and, as a result, the way we act both as a culture and as individuals–is derived from the fictional narratives we’ve been exposed to for a good century-plus. There’s so much literature and data on this I wouldn’t even know where to begin with an exhaustive bibliography. Do some research, dude. There’s more to life than comic books and D&D.

            “Yes, but it’s insignificant compared to communication and compromise.”–That’s adorable. When you grow up, you’ll discover that sex is what makes a relationship something more than a friendship.

            “Sluts tend to do neither one of those, thus it’s safe to assume they’re unfit for a successful relationship.”–Wow, what a bitter, resentful life you must lead. A person–man or woman–who’s had a lot of sex is perfectly capable of communication and compromise. Are you under the impression that with each new sexual partner a person has, the “communication and compromise” sector of the brain starts to break down or something? You sound like Elias from Clerks II jibbering about pussy-trolls.

            “Now if you excuse me I’ll continue to gauge people on the content of their character.”–You mean you’ll continue to gauge people on the extent of their sex lives, which has nothing to do with the content of their character.

            “I’m sure their ability to fuck is great for casual flings”–Enjoy your life of boring sex.

          • @SarcasticSloth

            Other than the fact that “American culture in general” is hilariously vague and barely constitutes as evidence, it’s also based on the misconception that it’s fiction that influences culture rather than reflecting it.

            There’s a world of difference between love and friend with benefits. And honestly if asking for your partner’s sexual history is met with a “It’s none of your damn business!” Then obviously it’s both a failure in terms of trust and communication. Just one of the many examples of why used goods aren’t up to par.

            Besides sex is something all forms of life can do, “experience” only really matters if you enjoy things like having your prostate massaged.

            Are my standards really that upsetting that you feel the need to attempt to attack me personally? I honestly don’t care if you enjoy your whore monger sexuality. I know it doesn’t affect me in any way shape or form.

          • JonathanNathan

            “Other than the fact that “American culture in general” is hilariously vague and barely constitutes as evidence, it’s also based on the misconception that it’s fiction that influences culture rather than reflecting it.”–There have been so many studies done on the impact of fiction on cultural narratives. Yes, fiction reflects culture, but it also informs it.

            “There’s a world of difference between love and friend with benefits.”–The only difference is exclusivity.

            “And honestly if asking for your partner’s sexual history is met with a “It’s none of your damn business!” Then obviously it’s both a failure in terms of trust and communication.”–Who said anything about that? You can ask and she can tell you, but why would she want to if you’re just going to be all “you sucked 37 dicks??????”

            “Just one of the many examples of why used goods aren’t up to par.”–Oh that’s nice. Referring to women as commodities.

            “Besides sex is something all forms of life can do, “experience” only really matters if you enjoy things like having your prostate massaged.”–Spoken like someone who’s never had good sex. Believe me, li’l guy, there’s an ocean of difference between boring sex between two almost-virgins and getting pegged by a strap-on.

            “Are my standards really that upsetting that you feel the need to attempt to attack me personally?”–I am offended that people like you exist, yes.

          • Bastet

            Really judging a person by their strength of character, ability to communicate and to share a two way flow of love and respect has absolutely nothing to do with numbers and everything to do with kindness, empathy, generosity of spirit and learning from one’s personal history.

            A person who uses name calling and derogatory slander really doesn’t reflect these values. By your own standard of ‘good character’, SarcasticSloth, you’re not relationship material because judgement and name calling is not good communication.

            As for the relationship between reality and the various forms of media imagery there are two very well documented badic facts that have been well known for a very long time (along with much more).

            1. Objectification dehumanizes. A thing is easy to hurt, a whole person is not. By removing selfhood and replacing s/he with ‘it’ the humanity is removed making violent crime more likely. This was demonstrated in the Nazi concentration camps and studied fot decades after. Every single time an image of a man or a woman is shown in a way that removes agency and makes that person a ‘thing to be used’ or ‘an object of desire’ it dehumanizes all ‘it’ represents.

            2. The subconscious cannot differentiate of reality and fiction. Though, consciously we know that a game, film, ad or other marketable image is fake and designed for entertainment or to sell products, the subconscious cannot make this differentiation. Again, this is old news, not new and revelatory. Literally, the entire business of marketing uses this basic principle.

          • Bastet

            Hi Jonathan Nathan and Sarcastic Sloth, there is a really obvious reason for marriages lasting longer when a man marries a virgin. Note ‘virgin’ only applies to her. It’s called religion. Most notably, Islam and orthodox Catholicism. Whether these marriages are happy or not is another matter entirely.

            Personally, I’d prefer a broken marriage over one that is making both people miserable, so I don’t consider divorce rates to be of any informative value as they don’t speak to fulfillment.

          • JonathanNathan

            I don’t remember what we were talking about.

          • Bastet

            You were very easily showing up Sarcatic Sloths ignorance and I just chimed in on a different angle :)

  • Karyna Romo Galindo

    Fantastic and brilliant article! We need more feminist men like you. I have to say that reading this restored a bit of my faith in humanity. We should all be warriors in this fight and advocate. Rape culture affects all of us, not just women. Thank You.

  • niko4ever

    I’m fine with a guy coming on to me in a bar or saying “Hey beautiful” on the street as long as he doesn’t then follow me even though I said No thanks. If I smiled it was because I thought it was sweet or was flattered, but if you think that that negates my “no” then I regret it.
    Also, it’s funny that the same guys who think women who flirt or “tease” are asking for it are the same guys that think women shouldn’t overreact to innocent catcalling.

  • elizabethleacar

    I don’t have a skull……… or bones…

  • Kat McAllistair

    Morality is completely relative so to say there is no moral argument that justifies a refusal to accept feminism does not make sense. If I start from the premise “morality is doing what is in my own personal best interest as a human male” and then go on to show that feminism is not in my best interest (simple to do) then it could be morally justified.

    Morality is a terrible angle to come from for that very reason that it is subjective.

    • Bastet

      Even if you come from ‘own best interests’ there’s a lot of reasons equality is in your best interests. I don’t personally know you so I don’t know what your areas of privelege and areas of discrimination are, but most people have both. Fighting for equality may mean giving up ones areas of privelege as a trade off for less discrimination.
      For eg. Part if the wage gap is caused by pregnancy, giving birth and nursing. If this was understood as an equal contribution to society and thus a full-time job worthy of pay it would have many benefits. It would obviously benefit women but would also benefit men because men are parents too. Once a baby is on the bottle both men and women could be full-time or part-time parents until the child is school age. Fighting the gendered pay gap also means fighting for equality in parenting rights because they’re intricately tied together.

      • Kat McAllistair

        That particular example assumes I intend to have children which I do not.

        However arguments that show how feminism is beneficial to men have far more potential to convince men than moral arguments. Your post itself seems more convincing to me than that whole article.

        • Bastet

          No assumptions about you; simply an example to outline the point.

          I could just as easily use an example of how fighting racism benefits a white small business owner. If they truly want no subtle subconscious discrimination effecting their judgement to get the very best employee then fighting racism in the workplace benefits them. The same could be said of disabled, age, height, pretty/handsome discrimination etc

          Equality of all description benefits us all. Inequality takes from everyone. Sometimes it does so very personally. Again, I don’t know you. But an example of how rape effects the non-rapist and the non-violated is in interacting with people who are very slow to give trust, may give an impression that others have to ‘jump through hoops’, ‘pass tests’, just to get the basic crumbs of trust happening. This is just a normal human response to a bad experience or series of bad experiences; self-preservation, survival. The roll on effect can be hurtful to those who have nothing to do with causing the self protective behaviour.

          So, there’s a few examples. Again, I make no assumptions about who you are, what you want out of life or whether these are relevant to you.

          • Kat McAllistair

            Not sure I can buy into the claim that ” Inequality takes from everyone”. Income inequality appears to benefit some people in a society, as does employment inequality, education inequality and so on.

          • Bastet

            I agree with you; inequality benefits individuals. No-one exists in an isolated bubble. There are hidden costs. Eg. White attractive male, able-bodied, grew up in a middle class family in a good neighborhood, got a quality education and goes on to get a good job with considered promotions and pay rises according to his station. Marries, has kids. He ‘must’ be the sole income provider and then the main income provider. His partner can’t earn as much, even if she’s had all the same advantages. The choice to spend more time at home simply isn’t available. His privelege had a hidden cost when he interacted with discrimination.

            That’s what I mean by it hurts everyone. Not that no-one ever benefits but rather that the privelege comes with hidden costs.